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Anger at MoD plan to unfurl £2.5m of new flags



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Published Date: 29 June 2008
DEFENCE chiefs are spending £2.5m replacing every flag in the British military in a move which has angered troops still fighting for their lives in warzones with outdated and inadequate equipment.
The Ministry of Defence has embarked on the unprecedented, four-year programme, saying tatty flags are bad for morale.

An English firm has been awarded a contract to supply as many as 50,000 replacement flags for the Army, Navy, RAF and Royal Marines.

But senior soldiers, families of serving troops, and opposition politicians last night condemned the MoD's priorities, saying servicemen and women were dying as a direct result of poor equipment.

Earlier this month, four troops were killed in action in Afghanistan, including the Army's first female fatality in the campaign, while riding in a Snatch Land Rover, a type of vehicle which has been harshly criticised for its lack of protection against bombs and mines.

The contract, which has been awarded to Zephyr Racing Pennants of Kettering, Northants,

includes new Union Flags, the Navy's Red Ensign and the Army and RAF flags.

In addition, the deal will also cover signal flags and unit pennants flown from vehicles as well as flags for individual bases.

All service bases and headquarters are required by the Queen's Regulations to fly the Union Flag daily, and they normally also display unit and station banners.

According to the company which will manufacture the flags, a typical Union Flag for use by the military, which measures 90cm by 180cm, will cost about £34.95.

Justifying the spending, an MoD insider said: "There's more to the military than bullets and bombs, you know. If you took the attitude of nothing but the essentials, then where would the parades and the nice posh uniforms be? You need these things too."

But the move has led to outrage. Rose Gentle, whose son Gordon Gentle, was killed at the age of 19 in Iraq in 2004 after his Land Rover was destroyed by a bomb, said: "This money would be far better spent on protecting the troops from harm and not leaving them in lightly armoured Land Rovers."

Former tank commander Colonel Stuart Crawford said: "I could think of a lot of better ways to use this money. I know that it won't buy very many Eurofighters or even bits of Eurofighters. But all the spending money on things like this all adds up and the Ministry of Defence is notoriously profligate when it comes to taxpayers' money.

"Is £2.5m spent on flags really appropriate when we have our armed forces fighting two wars?"

SNP defence spokesman Angus Robertson said: "While it is indisputable that flags are maintained at an appropriate standard, it does occur that so many other areas of military spending are not receiving the funding they need. Many people will be asking themselves whether the Ministry of Defence have the right sense of priorities."

Tory MP and former infantry officer Patrick Mercer said: "If you are going to have a flag flying then you want it to be clean. The whole point of having a flag is for it to be a symbol to everyone and if it's scruffy or absent then it's not good. But it seems an awful lot of money for what is after all something at the luxury end of military spending."

And Ben Wallace, who served with the Scots Guards before becoming a Tory MSP and then MP, said: "Flags do actually matter a lot to soldiers. They are a part of belonging and they are important. But that's a very considerable amount of money to spend on this."

Explaining the contract, an MoD spokeswoman said: "This contract is for the replacement of flags in all the armed forces at all bases, including on ships, over the next four years. They do get worn out over time and they do need replacement. We do have an awful lot of flags and you don't want them to look tatty. It's bad for morale."

Tragic losses blamed on equipment shortages include the death in Basra in 2003 of tank commander Sergeant Steven Roberts, who handed over his body armour to a colleague shortly before he was shot.

In 2006, the death in Afghanistan of paratrooper Captain James Philippson was partially blamed on shortages of night-vision equipment and machine-guns.

In 2004, a group of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ambushed in Iraq were forced to attack the enemy in a bayonet charge after running out of ammunition. And in 2006 it emerged that British troops serving in Iraq had suffered more than 2,500 failures of weapons and vehicles during the first two years of operations in Iraq. Equipment which failed included the army's main battle tank, the Challenger 2, Land Rovers, rifles and machine-guns.

Meanwhile, relatives of some of the 14 servicemen killed when their RAF Nimrod plane exploded in Afghanistan in 2006 are planning to take legal action against the Ministry of Defence.

The families are in talks with lawyers in London about taking a case to the courts.

Earlier this year, a coroner ruled that the entire RAF fleet of Nimrod aircraft had never been airworthy and should be grounded.

Graham and Trish Knight, whose son Ben, 25, died in the crash are among the families who plan to lodge an action.

Knight said: "We have been in touch with solicitors in London with regards to taking legal action against the MoD for my son's death. The talks are at a preliminary stage.

"Had this been a bus company and the vehicle had been unworthy then legal action would have been taken, if not by the families, then by the Crown Prosecution Service.

"There have been no charges and nobody has been brought to blame for it. I feel that the Ministry of Defence is not beyond the law."


The full article contains 986 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 June 2008 12:01 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: British armed forces
 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

29/06/2008 00:17:38
2.5 million for an obsolescent flag?
2

ThomasP,

29/06/2008 00:28:04
Flags are important as we raise our flag it should fill us with pride.

Im talking about the Saltire of course ;-)

but what are the MOD doing? Are they morons? How many soldiers have died from no equipment or broken equipment?

This is terrible timing and more focus should be on giving the soldiers the right equipment.

3

Rob - Honest Toun,

29/06/2008 00:50:47
".....includes new Union Flags, the Navy's Red Ensign and the Army and RAF flags."

It's the merchant navy that flees the Red Ensign - the auld red duster. The Royal Navy flees the White Ensign - a St. George's cross wi a Union Flag in the tap quarter neist tae the staff.

Somebody's no been daein thair hamework.
4

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 29/06/2008 01:24:33
they need the flags to drape over the coffins of soldiers killed in this illegal war.
5

W Smith,

Middle East 29/06/2008 04:18:43
THe SNP have just committed 6 million quid for gay and transgender groups in Scotland and are committed to using taxpayers money to build mulsim schools.

Shows you how in touch Salmond is with the Scottish public.

#4
Same old SNP propaganda.

1) The war in Afghanistan is not 'illegal'.

2) Saddam murdered his way into power and by western standards his government was 'illegal' which was then toppled by an 'illegal' invasion.

SO WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

Only some deluded SNP voters think that Saddam won the Iraqi General Election to become leader.

I suppose some SNP lefties think Fidel Castro won Cuban elections thanks to the efforts of his friendly election canvasser Che Geuvera who was known for his... eh.. 'debating skills' then, eh?

Its time ...


........to get up to speed on the facts.
6

donald,

glasgow 29/06/2008 04:26:31
The Butcher's Apron is finished.
7

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 06:38:29
This is a load of rubbish - over sensationalised reporting about a mundane event. All it is we're seeing here is that the tender for supply of flags has been won by a new company, and probably at a better price. Units need flags and order them when needed through stores at Donnington. There's no chance that 2.5 million's worth will simply be made and dispatched overnight. The next thing we'll be seeing is some dimwit of a journalist sensationalising the supply of paperclips and envelopes.

The forces need mundane items as well as fighting hardware and these journalists would be the first to complain if a soldier's body was draped in a Union flag which was frayed at the edges.

Sheer codswallop.
8

Geoff,

sa 29/06/2008 06:49:32
Agree with JimmyRibsh-a load of rubbish! Whilst acknowledging deficiencies elsewhere the simple question is-replace the flags or dont replace the flags. The question answers itself. Also the troopie flying the Lion Rampant on the tank is technically breaking the Law. The Lion Rampant(and the Lions passant and British Royal Banner) is reserved to the monarch.
9

Geoff,

sa 29/06/2008 07:03:16
Also as a matter of interest the Union Jack(call it Union Flag if u want to be pedantic) is also aRoyal flag but its general use'as a mark of loyalty' has been authorised by the Crown. It still has no official status as the Flag of the United Kingdom.
10

missing home,

la verne 29/06/2008 07:07:37
To me, a flag that shows the wear and tear of warfare but still flies proudly, means more than a brand new 'pretty' one...our flag's still there battered and bruised, maybe, but so are we.


maybe it's just me
11

hairystovies,

Glasgow 29/06/2008 07:10:09
Well said JimmyRibsh1te, I agree with everything you say. This is a complete non-story written by a journalist looking for a cheap headline.
MacLeod states that British troops are "angered" by the purchase. Really? I would be amazed if squaddies "fighting for their lives," were even aware of it.
If you dont approve of Britains military involvment in Iraq & Afghanistan Mr MacLeod, then say so, but please try to resist writing ludicrous articles which you imagine will support your view.
12

subrosa,

29/06/2008 07:11:12
# 7 A better price? You think a flag which measures 90cm by 180cm and will cost about £34.95 a better price?

I fly a Saltire all year round and I replace them once a year in spring. £7.99 each they are. If it wasn't for the wind here then they would possibly last a couple of years.

Complete waste of money, in fact a disgraceful waste of money. I'm a military parent and when I hear of the lack of good quality safety and protection equipment other countries' armies have I'm angry.
13

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 07:23:14
Subrosa, be aware, I am an ex-military man and have a reasonable concept of what I'm talking about. The cheap flags at £7.99 you're buying wouldn't last a week at the top of a military flagpole in the winter - or at sea. The flags the military use are of much heavier material.

Perhaps you'd like to discontinue the use of cap badges, berets, divisional and unit patches, and signage in barracks - that might save another 2.5 million. With all that saving we can buy one Challenger 2 tank.

In other words, this is all out of context. The flags are needed and in terms of defence spending, 2.5 million is buttons.
14

Guga II,

Rockall 29/06/2008 08:11:26
The fact that they are spending this money on replacement flags doesn't bother me in the slightest, even if I do object to the use of the Butcher's Apron.

What upsets me is the fact that Maggie Broon has our troops fighting in an illegal war in Iraq, and a futile war to assist in the building of an oil pipeline in Afghanistan (on behalf of the war criminal Bush and his business buddies).

However, what really angers me is the fact that he has sent our troops to fight with insufficient, substandard and faulty equipment. That, to my way of thinking, is criminal negligence.

We have had a long list of garbage equipment supplied to the troops, from boots with soles that melt in the heat, faulty rifles, faulty tanks, faulty aircraft, and Land Rovers with fibre-glass "armour".

We are now told that " In 2004, a group of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ambushed in Iraq were forced to attack the enemy in a bayonet charge after running out of ammunition. And in 2006 it emerged that British troops serving in Iraq had suffered more than 2,500 failures of weapons and vehicles during the first two years of operations in Iraq. Equipment which failed included the army's main battle tank, the Challenger 2, Land Rovers, rifles and machine-guns."

This, as I said above, is criminal negligence on the part of this so-called government of Maggie Broon. So, forget the trivia about flags, and let's force these incompetents to supply our troops with decent and functional equipment, and in adequate quantities.


15

Gie's a break,

Edinburgh 29/06/2008 08:12:00

"Lions led by Donkeys"
16

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 29/06/2008 08:21:32
The SNP regularly wraps itself in a flag (instead of the fig leaf, or sound arguments), so why the hostility here? Bringing out more flags has always been the bureaucratic solution to a lack of other equipment. Read Evelyn Waugh.
17

Col. Blimp­IV*,

29/06/2008 08:29:13
SoS can always be relied on to present paint drying as if it were a scoop.

But Flags are important...Hats of to the chaps in the picture for buying their own.

They probably folded the bullet-proof ones that #13 was telling us about and stuffed them into their flack-jackets.
18

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 29/06/2008 08:31:39
When put in context 2.5M quid over 4 years amounts to 625 grand out of Billions in an annual defence budget. Should we check on how much is spent on toilet paper just to be covered in s@#t and flushed down the loo. There could be a saving if they used journos to wipe their backsides with. Another non-story.
19

Col. Blimp­IV*,

29/06/2008 08:35:13
Rulesbutnotrulers can always be relied upon to snipe at the SNP, while wrapped in a Union Jack which he imagines to be invisible.
20

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 08:35:27
Guga, you really are talking the utmost rubbish. For a start the war in Iraq finished in 2003. Plus UK troops have now been withdrawn. Only 1,000 remain (in barracks) in case of emergency. The rifle problem was sorted out in 1992. Macrolan armour is very efficient and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Challenger 2 tank, it outclasses every other MBT in the world - I know, I've been on one. The GPMG, .50cal, Mimimi and mini gun have all been in service for years without issues (since 1916 for the .50cal) and are considered superb weapons by the troops.

We are NOT now told about the superb bayonet charge by the A&SH in 2004. It was common knowledge at the time and wasn't as a result of low ammo sticks because the 8 man patrol HAD BEEN RE-INFORCED. They CHOSE to bayonet charge the enemy in true Scots fashion. Nor is there anything wrong with out aircraft.

Go away and learn something about what you're talking about instead of basing your opinions on the type of sensational journalism which makes kooks like you come up with this rubbish.

If you want to help us forces guys then stop whinging about the fact that flags are part of our tradition and heritage and that they cost approx £500,000 a year to maintain throughout the entire Navy, Army and Air Force - put some pressure on your local MP about our pensions. There's nothing wrong with our kit.

21

BuddieDumfries,

29/06/2008 08:36:44
Shoddy Murdo MacLeod!! "...Union Flags, the Navy's Red Ensign and the Army and RAF flags." The ensign of the Royal Navy is the White Ensign - the red one is for the British Merchant fleet! Its not hard to check your facts before you get them printed!!
22

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 08:49:53
I'm actually incensed by this story and some of the shallower comments. This journalist should be sacked.
23

Ronald Telfer,

Oak Bay, BC, Canada. 29/06/2008 09:06:04
Regarding comment #3, You fly a flag, you fly a pennant but the Royal Navy proudly "wears" the White Ensign.
Until 1965, the Royal Canadian Navy also had the privilege of "wearing" the White Ensign, but when the new "Maple Leaf" flag (The Pearson Pennant) became the National Flag by Act of Parliament, the White Ensign was formally abandonned.
Many former sailors of the RCN have appropriated the Old White Ensign for their own use, not as a mark of disrespect, but rather as a protest against unpopular Government action.
Commander(R) G.R. Telfer CD**, CAF (SHR)(Retd).
24

Guga II,

Rockall 29/06/2008 09:13:52
#20. It is yourself that is talking rubbish. Have a look at the various news items over the years about SA80 rifles jamming, tanks unable to handle the dust conditions, boots melting, lack of body armour, Land Rovers with fibre-glass "armour" etc. etc. And have a look, again, at the comment in the article about "Earlier this year, a coroner ruled that the entire RAF fleet of Nimrod aircraft had never been airworthy and should be grounded.".

Some of the problems may have been sorted out, e.g. the rifles and the tanks, but they should not have happened in the first place. Nor should any of our troops have been placed in a position wherein they had to buy items of their own kit. I am also well aware of the capabilities of the GPMG.

Perhaps you should try talking to some of our servicemen that have been in the Middle East, instead of acting like a blowhard.

Incidentally, if you actually bother to read my comment, I was not whinging about flags; on the contrary, I stated that I thought it was trivia.

25

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 29/06/2008 09:15:48
#19 Col.Blimp.

Since I'm as hostile to this broken union as most, your coment is vacuous. And I don't just snipe at the SNP: I fire broadsides at its divisive, ahistorical, deceitful, self-seeking, short-sighted numptiness. Nationalism is the first refuge of scoundrels.
26

Upbeat,

29/06/2008 09:17:51
Are we to have such silly stories written everytime a journalist looks through the small detail, now available under open access legislation , about how the government spends money.

Why not look at the cost of teabags in NHS canteens, why not look at the cost of shoeing horses for the household cavalry, why not look at the tyre changing policy for Military vehicles..are tyres replaced because they are worn out or because it is vital that vehicles available for official, administrative, or emergency use can get grip in muddy conditions.

A little bit of knowledge goes a long way in an article like this. How long does the Ensign flown on HMS Invicible last or that of HMS Ocean ? How many weeks does the RAF flag at RAF Brize Norton surviove on average. Do we expect a ribbon of flag on the MOD building in London ? Does anyone know or really care.

How many teaspoons are replaced annually in Government ministries , or how many Napkins are laundered at Public expense.?

A Non- story ...an editor struggling to fill column inches with copy.
27

Boy Wonder,

29/06/2008 09:25:16
The old oxymoron Military Intelligence is proven once again.
28

Biker,

Ayr 29/06/2008 09:25:22
Prioritising seems to be lost on this labour government. As Guga so rightly points out perhaps the money would have been better spent on armour or indeed clothing for the troops.
Why cant they buy cheaper flags from the internet, they seem to approve of the troops buying their supplies from there?
29

St Andrews Jock,

ST ANDREWS 29/06/2008 09:27:08
Slow news day for 'The Scotsman on Sunday', so lets make a story up.
30

St Andrews Jock,

ST ANDREWS 29/06/2008 09:45:03
Murdo McLeoad demonstrates the journalistic qualities that would suit him to Mugabe’s public relations officer. With inventiveness, he could develop the reality of the Zimbabwe elections into an example to us all of how free and fair elections should be managed. Well done all at the ‘Scotland on Sunday’.
31

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 09:45:17
Guga, once again you are talking rubbish. You obviously know nothing about the military, just what you have read. The SA80 doesn't jam and in fact is performing so well that it's service life is likely to be extended. There was never a dust problem with CR2 because any of the problems were foreseen due to the experience gained with CR1 (which was a Chieftain variant) in GW1. CR2 is a complete new build and is a superb MBT. There's only been one case of a soldier dying because of lack of body armour and it was a blue-on-blue by his own crew because a GPMG firing solenoid malfunctioned.

As for Nims, the may be old but they are still superb aircraft but the RAF would refuse to put them in the air if they weren't airworthy, unlike civvy airlines who will fly anything in any weather.

If you knew the problems had been sorted out why raise them in the first place except for the pleasure of seeing your ill-informed comments in print?

Once again I see you have made the error of assumption in your allegation that I have neither spoken to my comrades who are serving and have served in the Middle East and that I have never been there myself.

FYI I am a decorated ex-serviceman who was wounded on active service for my country.

What were you - a cub scout?
32

ExReme,

Inverness 29/06/2008 10:19:43
Well mr ex-serviceman, you were obviously in an army that I do not recognise- you accept bad equipment without a wimper!!!! Mind you, I was with reliable 303's and SLRs, when the SA80 came along I had to be issued with a side arm- as a left hander the SA80 was a disaster. I fixed and Centurians and Chieftains and saw active service. The military is seriously short changed by the MOD- flags!!!!
33

bluehead,

edinburgh 29/06/2008 10:35:42
doesn't seem much like common sense to waste money in such a way,it would be better spent on more up to date equipment,especially when our troops are having such a bad time, I'm afraid that,that is what happens when lots of money is combined with very little brains.
I am surprised how our young men and woman join the armed forces these days as they are only used by politicians
34

JimmyRibsh1te,

29/06/2008 10:37:22
Same to you Mr ex-REME. You were in a different army to me it would appear because we got on with the job and didn't whinge about it, then again I was in a regiment which had 300 years worth of battle honours to live up to. I didn't have the luxury of being a tiffy who had his own office and tea boy.
35

Phil1,

Edinburgh 29/06/2008 11:16:11
Well the newspaper quotes unamed non-existent military personnel. Why lie in an article - the MOD oders toilet paper for its barracks, it orders paint, it buys new cutlery and plates for its messes, it orders new uniforms to replace old or worn out ones - that is what large organisations do.

Is the author just stupid or an evil small minded monster?

The MOD may be odd, it may be inefficient but to try and link normal routin ordering of supplies as though it was new flags or new vehicles is plain daft - just like the author.
36

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 29/06/2008 11:32:00
Spot on no 35
37

Thistledhu,

29/06/2008 11:47:22
i left the Army two years ago the kit has improved leaps and bounds.
The snatch landrover is the same vehicle that was used in Northen Ireland Through the Late 80's and onto present day there is hardley a armoured vehicle in the world that can withstand a landmine blast.

As to the issue of flags it is a none issue flags have to be replaced far more is spent on the painting of items such as kerbs etc brass polish the list goes on. £2.5 million wouldent cover two mps expenses for a few years or so lets get real a non story.
38

Edward,

29/06/2008 12:25:52
I think the truth behind this story is more sinister than any realise.
Gordon Brown and Des Browne are contiuing the emasculation of the Scottish regiments. Not satisfied by lumping the proud regiments under the so called 'Royal Regiment of Scotland' but Labour want the Scottish troops stop flying the Saltire and Lion rampant as illustrated in the picture above. Labour want only the Union flag flown and nothing else. Once the new flags are issued, they will issue an instruction that only army penants and the Union flag are used and flown from miltary vehicles.
39

Edward,

29/06/2008 12:28:06
Also note someone didnt do there homework, the present day Royal Navy dont fly the red ensign, thats the flag for the merchant navy

Funnily enough though the flag flown by the Royal Scots Navy, prior to 1707 was a red ensign, that is a saltire in top quadranta on red flag
40

Fifi la Bonbon,

29/06/2008 12:29:33
As others have said, this is using the Freedom of Information Act to create misleading news stories. I work in a government agency and spend too much time dealing with stupid requests from lazy newspaper reporters, including the Times. Scotsman, Sun and worst of all the Daily Mail trying to get statistics on how much we spend on bog roll or paint or electric shock batons (kidding) so they can cobble together a story about pampered civil servants spending too much time on the bog. Or whatever. You can set your watch by them.

They never sem to actually find news to report so they try to get us to give them easy pickings for a pointless non-story, whch they complete by getting rentaquotes like Rose Gentle to finish off for them.

This is the UK military we're talking about. They fly flags - it's what they do. Just as reporters drink alcohol to excess.
41

Logandrake,

Around and About 29/06/2008 12:43:22
As a SERVICEMAN!!, this story outrages me, as do some of the comments. The Kit in the services is excellent and being improved all the time. Yes there was problems with the SA80, the SLR was a better weapon, but god was it heavy and awkward. The SA80, like all weapons needed kinks ironing out. Did smith and wesson make the MAGNUM straight away. As for left handers, its difficult, but only some sub machine guns are a parable weapon for them, but these don't have the range or accuracy. The American M16 isn't good for left handers either. The sand problem was quickly solved, as was the aircon for the land rovers. The Nimrod is still the best at it's role in the WORLD!! There is no better platform, and is maintained by the best in the WORLD!! Not some company who needs to meet a deadline or a target. Our guys need to do the job right and ALWAYS do! Flags and Standards are a military tradition, people have died defending these flags in by gone days, don't forget that. We don't!! That is why we proudly carry these flags to remember what they symbolise. The NHS budget is around £110BILLION, the defence budget around £45 billion. thats £45,000,000,000 for illustratrion purposes. The Journo in this article should hang his head in shame, and his editor fall on his sword and print a retration. This isn't news, just a S##t stirring. Call yourself a journalist, I could serialise rubbish like this. Did you know that the average Journo earns £23000 PA, but a newly qualified nurse earns just £15,445. Lets jump on this band wagon!!

Rant OFF
42

Radical Mac,

Kirkcaldy 29/06/2008 13:05:39
Interesting storm in a teacup over basically a standard replacement of equipment. Cheap shot journalism. Someone mentioned that the navy do not fly the MN red duster but as far as I am aware the Royal Fleet Auxiliary do, although a government shipping line with one customer the Royal Navy but still MN. As for the comment that only the monarch can fly it is wrong only the Monarch and the Lord Lyon of Scotland but no one else. Strange every tartan tat shop sells a flag illegal to use. So every proud and uninformed sporting supporter waves one.
Tatty flags like tatty uniforms do not do anything for morale and flags are the oldest battlefield form of identification and a rallying point. As for these so called illegal wars I wonder as an ex Int. Corps soldier why we are there. Nobody will ever succeed in Afganistan we did not in the empire days and the Russians certainly did not. Iraq and Afganistan are the Bush family Oil Wars, hopefully stop with Pres. Obama.
43

Dane Miller,

Stornoway 29/06/2008 13:32:08
Slow news day? Every thing costs, even flags. £2.5M / @£40 = 62 500 flags, for each battalion, base, ship, squadron, etc and I have no doubt this wil include spares. Do a little research and try and find put what you can buy with £2.5M in defence terms and you will find it is not a lot.
44

Tired of Hypocrites,

Mount Forest, Canada 29/06/2008 13:54:17
Lets see now, just why are we having some of our finest young people killed in a piece rocky soil, far from home?
We shouldn't be there, its a BS action. If you're going to fight a war, fight to win. The Afghanistan and Iraqi fighter, are expert at this type of war. They've been killing each other in their tribal wars for hundreds of years. The population of these counties do not support infidels in their counties. Get out and let them sort it out themselves.
45

Phil1,

Edinburgh 29/06/2008 14:25:10
Tired of Hypocrites,Mount Forest, Canada

Its lucky in the war of 1812 someone didn't follow the Canadian view and refuse to help out or Canada would now be part of the US - maybe that's what should happen to 'Tired of Hypocrites'.

There is an argument over whether the Iraq war should be fought but not Afghanistan. I object to people supporting the Taliban and Al Queda perhaps they would have supported Hitler in the 1930s - Appeasement it was called then now its just cowardice!
46

JimmyRibsh1te,

29/06/2008 14:45:53
No 44, the Iraqi and Afghani fighters are NOT expert at this kind of war, that's why they're losing and resorting to suicide tactics.

No 45, the Iraq War finished in 2003. It's an internal security situation which is going on and the last British troops there were withdrawn to barracks months ago.
47

Geoff,

sa 29/06/2008 14:50:24
42 Radical Mac- the Royal fleet Auxilliary fly the Blue Ensign. As to the Lion Rampant,whilst its use by the public is strictly speaking illegal, the law is not it would seem,enforced!
38 Edward-I think that as long as the BRITISH Army is BRITISH it should fly authorised military flags and the Union Jack. The flags of the individual Home Nations-whether saltire,st george,red hand or red dragon should not be used.
48

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/06/2008 14:50:35
Ah, the nostalgia. I enjoyed the army - mind you it was relatively peaceful then.

1973 when I came out and handed in my 38 pattern webbing. Even had a hair shirt dated 1943.

But, as has been mentioned earlier, squaddies don't complain. They moan about things like the food and the new RSM.

Ah, the SLRs. Gas mark 7 for central Europe, if I remember correctly. We used to turn them down for the sprogs on their first 10 mile bash so they would get a recoil like a 303 on the firing range.

20, JimmyRibsh1te, I fired the GPMG over the North Sea from the back of a Land Rover on a firing range at Todendorf in Germany. Had to assemble the clips into a belt and then load the bullets. Could have sworn the bullets were 7.62, the standard nato bullet for rifles and machine guns apart from the 9mm smg.

49

Nikostratos,

29/06/2008 15:01:56
Seems like a ex-army reunion going on here.You know what they say"Old soldiers never die they just bullsh#t on the Scotmans webs site"
50

Schot,

29/06/2008 15:06:51
In addition there are the two white flags we are going to need for Basra and Helmand. No insult to the soldiers, their bravery or sacrifice, the top brass stated in advance that you shouldn't go in without an exit strategy.

In two years time we should have an independent Scottish army full of the traditional regiments, without the weekly corpses from foriegn misadventures.

One awful thing I've heard about the army is if a squaddie gets killed soon after signing up then their family gets no pension - can any of the soldiers here confirm or deny that ?
51

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/06/2008 15:09:49
Aye, Niko @49, excretum tauri omnia vincit. You should know that as a unionist.
52

Thistledhu,

29/06/2008 15:15:11
#50 wrong there wives do get a pension also the backing from orginisations such as the british legion and ssafa
53

Mallory,

Edinburgh 29/06/2008 15:23:52
Just as long as these desk-bound MOD idiots go out to Iraq and Afghanistan to replace all the flags themselves.

They might just then realise that proper body armour and decently protected vehicles are a bigger priority for our troops.

54

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks California 29/06/2008 15:24:26
Lets get those nice clean flags flying as soon as possible. Perhaps the families who are going to sue the MOD over the Nimrod accident will chip in a little of there ill gotten gains. How ludicrous, they have no qualms about starting a lawsuit that will likely cost many millions, yet critizise the purchase of these flags!
55

Strangelet,

Glesga 29/06/2008 15:27:30
Arseholes, the lot of 'em!
56

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/06/2008 15:58:30
54, Billy Boy, Sherman Oaks, Ca.

Yep. We should never have imported the compensation culture from the good ol' US, eh?
57

Joe Macdelta.,

29/06/2008 16:04:37
What a waste of money, that could be spent on the troops equipment, the r-sole that thought that one up should be shot with a ball of his own excreta.
58

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/06/2008 16:12:09
If it's new Saltaires and LRs they need I'll bet the Scotsman could have a whip round and get the job done in a couple of hours. At no cost to the taxpayer. Where do I send the cheque?
As for that thing with all the crosses and Xs, maybe not.
But I do like #38s conspiracy theory.
NuLab up to it's old tricks again. Brown really is a traitor.
59

NYScott,

Across the pond 29/06/2008 16:20:14
Just "paint" yer flag on what ever you want too! Who flies their flad in places like Iraq or Afganistan? Maybe at headquaters but not out in the field.
Flying a flag in combat is like showing the "insurgents" where you are!
OR how about ones made of plastic?
60

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/06/2008 16:22:34
As to the flags of Scotland being flown as depicted, I only want to see them flown in an honourable cause - not as the butt end of an imperialistic mindset's action.
61

indune1,

Canada 29/06/2008 16:23:28

Murdo must get paid by the word. What an idiotic story!

Such flags have been routinely purchased for centuries.

MacLeod - the MacLeods, now there is royal bunch of fence-sitters if there ever was one- obviously is the typical tabloid, wind-up artist.

Factually incorrect; no sourced quotes and all on a slow-news day.

I have it on good authority that many budding journalists at the Hootsman are becoming more vocal in their opposition to the paper's policy of paying a bonus to writers whose stories attract more than 200 postings.

Nuff said??
62

indune1,

Canada 29/06/2008 16:27:35

Joe - you are an incompetent! The ball of excreta must be frozen.
63

Schot,

29/06/2008 16:50:27
52 ThistleDhu (on pensions)

I found an Independent article from 2004 claiming a Glasgow soldiers berieved family didn't qualify for a pension as he hadn't been in the army long enough.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mother-of-soldier-killed-in-iraq-protests-after-mod-blocks-pension-535236.html

Maybe it has improved or is different with wives ?

64

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 29/06/2008 17:14:24
This is a non story, all the MOD have done is change the supplier when the exsisting contract came up for renewal. when flags get dirty you get a new one from your store and order a replacement from central stores. The difference is that the supplier to central stores has changed.
65

big_meat,

29/06/2008 17:42:00
If any of you who have been so dismissive of the need to replace flags gave a thought, the flags were... and indeed are an almost sacred symbol of belonging, of pride, and of being in the best fighting and defence force in the world.
Men and women for centuries have given their lives to live up to the flag, and serve their country.
JimmyRibsh1te is quite right in his defence and comments, and, again as an ex serviceman I can say the kit is fine.
We live and fight by our own rules, our own traditions and our own standards of service.
That is why, for example you dont find pizza hut and mcdonalds outlets on active bases... but you do find one very special and rare thing.
The Best Of The Best.
>>incidentally, biggest laugh of the day for me... the nutter above who said he didnt recognise the UK Army as a legitimate force. Does that include NATO...or are you shaking chicken bones and smoking various leaves?
66

Ellie,

Edinburgh 29/06/2008 17:51:44
Agree with No. 10 the wear and tear o flags hung up in castles and cathedrals etc are there showing the pride of battle....... Yeah lets get new ones
67

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 29/06/2008 18:24:46
And now another giant leap forward for the Westminster conspiracy theory.
As Scottish independence marches resolutely to its inevitable conclusion, things can evolve two ways.
A peaceful and semi-amicable parting of the ways like the Czechs and Slovaks.
Or that other thing. And Reekie and Glasga become the next Belfast and Sarajevo.
Which means sometime down the road the boys and the girls in the bonnets will be asked to test their loyalties. Not unlike the french speaking Vandoos who never get called out for operations in Quebec. It's the Ontario-based Royal Canadian Regiment that gets to do the dirty work (Quebec "crisis",Oka.)
Rebranding the Scots as part of the amorphous "British" military is clearly Westminster's cynical plan to get up ahead of things.
First the salaire. Expect kilts and bagpipes next.
68

indune1,

Canada 29/06/2008 18:38:51

Neil - I would suggest that your comments be best posted on a Canadian thread.

Oooi - don't forget the Patricia's!!!
69

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 29/06/2008 18:41:24
The day I left the army was a very difficult day for me. I left because of my wife. That day they got me in the troop office with a case of Carlsberg and toasted me goodbye. I had already handed in my uniform.

Then the sly b@st@rds handed me a slip of paper and told me to hand it into RHQ on my way out.

It was the Long Gunnery Staff Course accepted and my name was on it. I nearly turned back as I did not really want to go.

Well, I went to work the next day as a civilian and separated from my wife 2 years later.

Moral of the story is that squaddies are squaddies. The comradeship, brought about by the discipline, holds them together - not the flags nor the equipment.

I do note that JimmyRibsh!te has not got back to me about the calibre of the GPMP. Or should that be JimmyGobsh!te?
70

Danishscot,

Pocatello 29/06/2008 19:53:39
These MoD blokes, just like their counterparts in the US DoD (don't get me wrong - I love my country, but) could screw up a 2 car funeral. It takes a true bureaucacracy to do that.
71

WL,

livingston 29/06/2008 20:25:06
A union flag at £34.95? Who would want to pay that ?????? I am sure that they would be able to get them for a lower price; not only at the Indian stores in Edinburgh.
72

Kitti Kat,

pa 29/06/2008 20:29:14
Flags may be needed for the military but better and safer equipment along with good medical and emotional care before and after deployment to fight for their country. Our US military could benefit by better equipment,etc, too. Just because people don't agree with the hot shots who are runing things doesn't mean that we don't support our military. Be it in the US or the UK. Would rather see tax money (yours and ours) spent on helping these brave people.
73

Conan the Librarian™,

29/06/2008 21:13:11
54
Billy Boy.
Ah, a clue there.
So let me get this straight;
The relatives of the people who died on the Nimrod have "ill-gotten gains"?
And it is they, not the journo's from the Hootsman doing the complaining?

You are an extremely insensitive person.

Who lives under a bridge.
74

"Scotty",

29/06/2008 21:30:54
No. 14; excellent posting especially your 5th para- graph.
I can only imagine the tremendous loss the military families will have in their lives forever and wish them all the best in the law-suit again the MoD. It is utterly appaling the troops are still not kitted out adequately with appropriate vehicles for there ever so dangerous job. The MoD should be ashamed of themselves, and getting so many new flags at such a disgraceful cost is obscene.
Sadly, you are probably right Number 38 - - perhaps the Gov't at Westminster got rid of our Scottish Regiments to save money to pay for all these flags.
75

Tris,

Dundee 29/06/2008 22:41:51
"There's more to the military than bullets and bombs, you know. If you took the attitude of nothing but the essentials, then where would the parades and the nice posh uniforms be? You need these things too."

Well, indeed, where would we be without the posh uniforms and the parades and.... doubtless millions are spent on wines for the senior officers' messes, and MOD senior staff. What is it again, 42 Admirals for 28 ships or some such stuff?

Get the troops home and start acting like the small European country that the UK is. Then we wouldn't need to spend money on this stuff.

If the idiotic yUK govenment insists on pretending that it is still important then that disgusting excuse for a man, the minister for war should be based in Afghanistan, directing operations personally, only allowed to return to the UK when he comes home to apologise personally to parents for sending their children to war with rotten equipment, disgusting rations and unairworthy planes.

The fact that he has spent a weekend when two lads were killed in his foul war, which won't be won in a thousand years, bumping his gums about how wonderful Wendy Alexander was in stomach wrenching. A pox on him.
76

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 29/06/2008 23:04:45
#69. You are correct Jock as an ex Tankie I can confirm the Gimpy or GPMG is 7.62. SLR was 7.62. SMG 9mm. We also used .30 browning heavy machine gun and the famous .50. The SLR was replace by the much slagged SA80 which is 5.56mm, which apart from it's early short comings was felt to be to light on caliber to take down a determined enemy. 5.56 has now replaced 7.62 as the NATO standard light cal.

Squaddies do get the hump when there is constant negative stuff in the press, especially when you are in a foreign theater hundreds of miles away. We have always lagged behind the US in terms of equipment but get there in the end. There is no doubt though we have always punched well above our weight, that is what makes us unique.

77

Matt there,

somewhere 29/06/2008 23:37:59
Idiots. From Gordon Brown down.
78

John PM,

Edinburgh 30/06/2008 00:25:29
The troops proudly flying our flags (above pic) deserve an independent government that won't send them into meaningless conflicts on the behalf of an imperialistic US.
79

Tired of Hypocrites,

Mount Forest 30/06/2008 03:45:11
Phil1, Edinburgh
"Its lucky in the war of 1812 someone didn't follow the Canadian view and refuse to help out or Canada would now be part of the US."
"There is an argument over whether the Iraq war should be fought but not Afghanistan. I object to people supporting the Taliban and Al Queda perhaps they would have supported Hitler in the 1930s - Appeasement it was called then now its just cowardice!"
You're obviously one who believe everything you read and hear.
One who compares the war of 1812 and Hitler and Taliban and Al Queda must have their head placed firmly up their butt.
It all comes down to Money and Power, who's got and who wants it.
Neither of these actions is honorable or Just
80

JimmyRibsh1te,

Livvie 30/06/2008 14:14:10
Dear Mr Tamson, ref your post no 69. Firstly, I have better things to do than sit and wait for comments on a newspaper article - I've got grass growing and paint drying, both of which are infinitely more interesting.

Secondly, this is not the British Legion. If you want to chat about service issues there are sites on which you may indulge yourself.

Thirdly, and most importantly, I am not the one who can't remember the calibre of round used in the L1A1 SLR, L4A4 LMG and L7A1 GPMG.

Finally, I commend to you the words of Abraham Lincoln, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
81

,

30/06/2008 14:48:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

exobs,

ayr 30/06/2008 19:54:19
yet another piece of absolute nonsence

As someone who served for 16 years in the RN (including tours in Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention Bosnia / Kosovo and Sierra leone military peronnel take great pride in their symbols being the White ensign (just to prove how badly researched this article is the RN has not flown the red ensign since 1864!) or their regimental colours The MOD has always replaced its flags, would you rather the ones on display be tattered and torn.

I notice there are no comments regarding the fact that the APV in the photograph is flying a soltaire AND the lion rampant (but then this is a scottish paper) but not the union flag.

Do some of the above posters also resent the fact that each coffin bringing home yet another of our dead is covered with the union flag?

What about the fact that the MOD is to spent 15 million on keeping the Edinburgh tattoo alive or 4 million on providing hi visibilty vests for horse riders??

I suggest the usual MOD bashers get things in prospective and get behind our troops rather than bleat about a complete non story such as this.
83

Schot,

01/07/2008 01:43:29
"4 million on providing hi visibilty vests for horse riders?"

A high visibility vest cost less than a pound. They would have to be equipping two thirds of the world for this to be justified.
84

Jim fae' Leith,

Edinburgh 01/07/2008 09:02:50
I seem to remember, during the Korean War, a request going out for Saltires and Rampant Lions, to be sent to our lads serving there. It was a very popular idea at the time and I'm sure would be a hit now thus letting the MOD get on with supplying the main items so badly needed.
85

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks 03/07/2008 05:36:56
# 82 whilst I agree with much of what you say. I think the point is; Virtually everyone resents the fact that these coffins are needed at all! The flags are of little value to the relatives and friends of the victims. WE SHOULD NOT BE IN AFGHANISTAN OR ANYWHERE ELSE AS AGGRESSORS>

 

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