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Alexander makes fresh call for vote on independence



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Published Date: 22 June 2008
WENDY Alexander has repeated her support for a referendum on Scottish independence, declaring yesterday that the vote would happen and should happen soon.
Just a month after the issue caused a rift with Gordon Brown, the Scots Labour leader told an audience on Radio 4's Any Questions that "we're going to have a referendum". She then called on First Minister Alex Salmond to "get on with it" by bringing forward the date of the referendum from 2010 – the date he has currently set.

Alexander's spokesman last night insisted that she was merely restating her position. But her declaration that the referendum is "going" to happen prompted claims by the SNP that Alexander had now guaranteed her support for a vote – and prompted further warnings that the strategy has not been backed by the Prime Minister.

Alexander was addressing the question during a round-table debate on the BBC's flagship politics programme.

"I don't think it is in Scotland's interests to have this continuing uncertainty. We're going to have a referendum – get on – let the people of Scotland speak," she said. "Ultimately, whether you remain part of the sovereign state is a matter for the people."

In a message to Salmond, she added: "We shouldn't be leaving it until the last few months (of the Scottish Parliament's four-year term] – get on with it."

Alexander has told friends her support is aimed at preventing Salmond from being able to accuse Labour of preventing Scots from having their say on independence. She feared that, had Labour continued to oppose the vote, Salmond would have used their position to gain further support for the SNP in the 2011 Scottish elections.

But the policy does not have the backing of large sections of the party. One insider said last night: "There is a sense of frustration when she does this because it is bad for her more than anyone else. She should stop shooting herself in the foot, assuming she has any feet left. The Labour Party can't decide on this without putting it to the membership."

Another critic said: "There is still a hope that she will go sooner rather than later, and this will just add to that feeling. We need a professional leader in charge, and she isn't it."

Alexander's latest comments received a cool response from Downing Street yesterday. "This is a matter for Wendy Alexander. There is nothing new in these latest comments," said a spokesman.

Previously, enterprise spokesman Iain Gray had ruled out Labour voting for the SNP's current bill as it stands unless the wording of the proposed referendum question is changed. Under the SNP's proposals, voters would be asked to agree or disagree that "the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

A spokesman for Alexander said: "They will not vote for any question, but the principle remains – that Labour believes that the Scottish people should have the opportunity to decide on the question of whether the country becomes a separate state, with a fair question put to them. Her position has not changed on that."

However, the SNP insisted last night that Alexander's comments locked her in to backing a referendum bill.

SNP MSP Kenny Gibson said: "By reviving her call for an independence referendum, Wendy Alexander has backed Labour into a constitutional corner – while also exposing how the party is disintegrating in Scotland and across the UK. In Scotland, she has left Labour with no real choice but to back the Scottish Government's planned referendum bill in 2010."

The full article contains 604 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

21/06/2008 23:44:50

Hen, yer needles stuck.

Try and come up with an original idea?

Labour's been caught regurgitating the same announcements repeatedly.

Time, after time, after time.

Spin, after spin, after spin.

Yer tired, detested, and time is running out.

It's time.

Time for yer P45 Dear.
2

yoric,

22/06/2008 00:25:46
It's a pity that Labour aren't as keen on people having a referendum on the EU treaty.

It won't matter who runs Scotland in 10 years time, because all the decisions of any importance will be made in Brussels.
3

,

22/06/2008 00:29:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Jwil,

22/06/2008 00:30:33
".....Labour believes that the Scottish people should have the opportunity to decide on the question of whether the country becomes a separate state, with a fair question put to them...."

Maybe the people should be asked what question they want to questioned on?

It looks ever more likely that deciding the question to put to the people will be an irresolvable conundrum.

I seem to remember Iain Gray putting forward exactly the same argument not so long ago. He could have varied his wording just to make life a little more bearable. He should be called the 'grey man'. (sorry he is the gray man).

Luckily we have an election which will decide one way or the other whether the SNP is returned with enough votes to enable them to make progress on the issue.

"Alexander has told friends her support is aimed at preventing Salmond from being able to accuse Labour of preventing Scots from having their say on independence."

Does this mean that she really doesn't want a referendum, that she is just playing to the audience, that she is telling an untruth? So if Salmond called her bluff she would be in dead stuck?

Who would have thought it? A Cunning move!
5

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 22/06/2008 00:30:57

No Wendy a referendum when the government calls it please remember you are in opposition .

As an ex slave said to his old Massa during the American Civil war

THE BOTTOM RAIL IS ON THE TOP NOW
6

Paddi,

22/06/2008 00:42:47
Where she been? talking about rolling out her umpteenth relaunch no doubt. You got to try harder than this.......
7

Conan the Librarian™,

22/06/2008 00:57:52
4
Indeed.

That wide mouth...
8

Senga Jean,

22/06/2008 01:00:20
Andrew Marr said it beautifully. The Union is like two pizza slices drawing apart with only melted cheese making the connection. Scotland why do you suffer this indignity? Independence is the only answer!
9

Traquir , Alba,

22/06/2008 01:03:24
So another U-Turn for Alexander - how many
is that now, and really cares what she
says. A topic like GERS is of much more
relevance than a politician who has
been disgraced to such a level even
The Telegraph calls her "Scotland's, the UK's the World's, the Universe's Most Inept Political
Leader" - see tinyurl.com/3llxyq

Just in case any of you guys were unable to
find the Sunday Herald story on GERS here
is a link to it - tinyurl.com/5nzsv3

It is 11th ranking in the business section.
The Sunday Herald really needs to review
their system that ranks the priorities
of stories - there appears to be something
badly amiss here. Even purely on economic
grounds (i.e. foot traffic for advertising)
it makes sense to put stories which
are high interest &
high relevance to Scotland
in a high position in the rankings.

Of course there may be some other agenda
here that causes GERS to be hidden at
a low level away from the main headlines
which have such stellar stories as the
following taking precedence :

. More incompetence from Wendy and team -
so nothing new there.
. The importance of local food labeling
. Royal Highlight Show bun fight with BAA
. Fixing leaking pipes.
. Tory candidate calls racist Rhodesian
leader ‘a hero’

I wonder if the main Scottish newspapers will
be willing to be open on what the processes
are within their corporate structure
by which the crucial placement, of
their stories is determined. It does not
appear to be based on economic reasons
(which is something that should be near
and dear to them), it does not appear
to be in terms of stories that are most
important to Scotland, so just what
are the criteria ?

For Scotland on Sunday I am not sure where
they have hidden their coverage of
the important topic of GERS ?
10

Leerie the Lamplighter,

22/06/2008 01:09:32
#7 is one sad puppy.

We all know what makes his keyboard sticky.
11

subrosa,

22/06/2008 01:21:17
Did anyone hear Any Questions? Wendy Alexander was completely out of her depth and her answers were hesitant and drawled.

By comparison Nicola Sturgeon was professional and direct.

Why they had to have 2 MPs I don't know. Surely one Lib/dem MP could have been on the panel? Of course there's only one Tory MP and I expect he was busy with local fetes and things.
12

brian mcc,

the arctic 22/06/2008 01:45:55
reverse psychology

She wants a referendum now because it would be defeated. If the vote is cast next year or 2010, passage is probable.

London needs to see a psychiatrist.
13

Edward,

22/06/2008 02:52:26
#13 Subrosa
I listened to 'Any Questions' Found Wendy completely out of her depth. She was asked repeatedly by Jonathan Dimbleby , if she had spoken with Gordon Brown or had agrrement from Gordon Brown regarding her call for a referendum. She just ignored the question and ploughed on repeating ad nauseum that the SNP should not wait that the delay was causing damage. What I did find telling was her remark that it was not good that the referendum was going to be after the next General election. Nicola Sturgeon pointed out to her that Gordon Brown had dithered on the General Election and that there could have been one the end of last year.
Wendy's remarks imply that Labour are wanting to force the referendum before the next General Election for there own purposes
14

Beth Boyle,

22/06/2008 04:04:37
She is calling Salmond's bluff because he doesn't have the votes! You go girl!
15

Castaway,

22/06/2008 04:05:39
Why a referendum on Scottish independence now and not in Sept 2010 ?
There will be a possible UK general election in May 2010.
Takings from this year's oil bonanza will be published (GERS) only four months before a possible Sept 2010 referendum.
The oil price could be around the present level or higher in 2010.
Wendy could accuse the SNP of breaking a manifesto promise.
The Labour party will have to finance a general election possibly in May 2010 followed by the possible Scottish referendum in Sept 2010. This will be the same for all Scottish political parties ?
There will be Scottish Parliament elections in May 2011.
16

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 22/06/2008 04:39:16
Freedom!Independence! but not just yet Lord not just yet.
17

Richardinho,

22/06/2008 06:09:22
This is the Labour party that wont hold a referendum on the European constitution AT ALL (despite having promised one), refuse to take part in a By-election for what seem the most childish and petty of party political reasons, AND didn't get behind Wendy the last time she raised this!
18

Jimmy the Pie,

22/06/2008 06:31:01
I wonder if Red Wendy had her infamous e-mails which might clear her of the 'backhanders from Jersey businessman' scandal.

Will we ever get sight of them???
19

Calum10,

Dundee 22/06/2008 07:21:05
Quote: "We're going to have a referendum" - Wendy Alexander.

Labour can't backtrack on this statement.

A referendum on Scotish independence is now only TWO YEARS away.

How do Unionists like those bananas?
20

James,

Dundee 22/06/2008 07:52:00
Please go agent Wendy, but not until after 2010.

Labour in 4-cheese stuffed-crust meltdown
21

David MacVicar,

web 22/06/2008 07:54:48
UK Deficit widened to £4.3bn in April.
Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=199

At the end of December 2007 general government debt was £618.8 billion, equivalent to 43.8 per cent of GDP.
Yearly deficit: Provisional estimates show that for the calendar year 2007 the UK recorded a government deficit of £39.4 billion.
22

Roy,

22/06/2008 08:34:57
"She should stop shooting herself in the foot, assuming she has any feet left."

Maybe nae feet, but she sure has a gob on her.
23

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 08:59:05
With the Labour government about to end in tears, and the prospect of the Tories being returned with a massive majority in England, Ms. Alexander knows only too well of the significance of the proposed Referendum in 2010.

It casts a giant shadow of foreboding over the Labour Party in Scotland, which along with the other minority opposition parties, will undoubtedly suffer a further haemorrhaging of Unionist Votes to the SNP!
24

Cadgers,

Perht 22/06/2008 09:00:38
""the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the UK so that Scotland becomes an independent state"."...I thought we, Scotland that is, are a country. Am I wrong?
25

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 09:55:21
Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, what are you on about now?? Hmm??

Here's a tip. Next FMQ's, take a wee look over your shoulder, and you'll suddenly realise that big lassie ballie is after your job. Fake posh accent as well.
26

john z,

edinburgh 22/06/2008 09:59:16
Anyway, tell the folks in No.10, Scotland is getting a referendum. Does anyone think she consulted Brown?? Thought not.

Either way, it's up to the democratically elected Government of Scotland (and not the opposition) when a referendum is held (as was previously explained to daft Wendy). At present, they have it on the statute books for 2010. Nice to know Labour fully support it.
27

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 22/06/2008 10:19:16
Seems Wendy Alexander is running out of ideas and new arguments. We all know the SNP ain't what they paint themselves to be and the longer they are in charge it will become even more apart they are a one trick horse that even wee fat Eck salmon wouldn't back with his ain money when it came to the real crunch time. Like oil the SNP game has a finite life so get your head into gear all you gNAT supporters cause the game plan is starting to come apart at the seams for sure.
28

b.allan,

alba 22/06/2008 10:28:41
ah, the gobby clown is back..she's been so quiet lately i was wondering if she was in the jail...thanks for your opinion Wendy, like we care.
29

Rodster,

Glasgow 22/06/2008 10:30:56
Wendy , sweetheart , old saying for you , ensure brain is in gear before engaging the gub!!
Broon will be sending some of his cronies to slap you around.
The only referendum question the Liebour Party want is
"Do you voting fodder daft Scottish twits wish to remain the toy thing and gravy train providers of us Quisling Scots in Westminster Aye or Yes please vote"
30

Grant,

Scotland 22/06/2008 10:32:59
#30

No, sorry I think you're a wee bit confused there. Mixed signals and everything. It's the Union that has a rapidly diminishing and finite shelf-life. Our friends in England are also starting to get the measure of Scottish Unionism and don't like what they see, and they may well be the catalyst for putting United Kingdom out of its misery. So Unionists, get your head into gear. The Union is starting to fray at the seams. Time's up.
31

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 10:33:03
I listened to the Any Questions programme yesterday. Wendy Alexander is supposed to be an educated woman but she sounded like an incoherent harridan. Nicola Sturgeon wasn't much better. She's secretary for health but she hadn't got a clue about hospital infections or what to do about them. I can't even remember the name of the LidDem. The only panellist who seemed to know what he was talking about was Dominic Grieve and he's an English Tory.
32

frank mcbride,

lusitania 22/06/2008 10:40:46
Why are NuLabour getting themselves into such a tizzy?

The SNP stated, clearly, before, and during, the 2007 General Election that they proposed to have a Referendum in 2010.

NuLabour, and the others Unionist Parties, agreed that it would only happen over their dead bodies.

Now after NuLab meltdown, in Sept/Oct. 2007, we have a call for AN IMMEDIATE REFERENDUM. Why is this I wonder??? Could it by cynicism, borne out of desperation???

As Nicol Stephen would say, I smell the sleaze that comes from fear.
33

Angus Ogg,

22/06/2008 10:47:24
#4 Patrick McG.,

You own me a new keyboard.

Read your comment when taking a sip of coffee and burst out laughing. Keyboard now Coffeeboard

I take it you are being ironic?

The picture of anyone being scared of the pantomime dames, Bendy, or Jackie The Hutt is hillarious.

Well done Number 6. You make folk smile.
34

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:00:02
Poor Wendy, unfortunately whilst Paw Broon is pulling the strings she must obey Westminster's orders.
35

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:02:44
Published Date:
25 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
LABOUR has issued a stern message that it will block the SNP's plans for an independence referendum, after one of its senior figures ruled out supporting the proposed bill.
Enterprise spokesman Iain Gray told a conference last week that the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour.

Poor Paisley Puppet
36

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:04:27
Published Date: 11 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
WENDY Alexander was ridiculed by her political opponents last night after she was ordered by Gordon Brown to "close down" any further discussion of an independence referendum in Scotland.
In emergency talks on Friday following the Scottish leader's astonishing call for a referendum, the Prime Minister told Alexander the issue should be ditched.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal the Prime Minister told Alexander twice in the past few days that he did not support her proposal to force an referendum on Scotland, to "call the SNP's bluff".

Marionette Mooth Muffled
37

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 11:05:34
# 6 Marky Bhoy

"No Wendy a referendum when the government calls it please remember you are in opposition"

Wrong. Referendum when Parliament agrees to one. The SNP forms the government but it is only the largest minority among several minorities. Also its manifesto did not promise a referendum in 2010. It said a 'likely date of 2010'. If the SNP really does believe that the Scots are suffering under the English yoke, it should want to free us as soon as possible, so why not 2009? But perhaps the SNP does not believe its own propaganda. Perhaps they're just a bunch of politicians on the make like all the others.
38

Scotsgait - The Independent Portal to Scotland,

22/06/2008 11:06:15
We'll have a referendum on independence....but we'll not let the Calman Commission consider it as an option.

Something not quite right there !!
39

subrosa,

22/06/2008 11:06:30
# 30. Liberal for Life

Thank you. Best laugh I've had all weekend.
40

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:08:02
Published Date:
25 May 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor
LABOUR has issued a stern message that it will block the SNP's plans for an independence referendum, after one of its senior figures ruled out supporting the proposed bill.
Enterprise spokesman Iain Gray told a conference last week that the wording of the question which Alex Salmond wants to put to Scots was "unacceptable" to Labour.

Poor Paisley Puppet
41

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:08:03
Aye absolutely and from now on the SNP should timetable all of their policies for Labours convenience. How on earth do they expect to govern without Labour pulling their strings.
Wendy is after all the rightfully unelected First Minister by default of being leader of the Labour party in Scotland.
42

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 22/06/2008 11:08:28
We have already achieved our first step towards independence, by freeing ourselves from the confinements and shackles of 'the clones of Blair'.

We have also successfully rid ourselves of one incompetent leader in the Scottish Labour party, I'm glad to see Wendy stepping up to take Joke's place!

I wish her a happy retirement or transfer to Westminster!
43

subrosa,

22/06/2008 11:09:40
# 34

I entirely disagree with you about Nicola Sturgeon's performance on Any Questions. She was articulate and knowledgeable about c.difficile. This superbug holds particular interest for her as her grandmother contracted it shortly before she died. I'm a severe critic of politicians talking about c.diff as I am a survivor of this bug myself so I know when someone is talking sense and when someone is talking garbage.
44

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:09:48
40

So by your logic the SNP cant call the referendum timetable but its ok for the opposition parties to call it? whats the point of winning an election then?
45

Daveunderwater,

22/06/2008 11:09:58
One in four Labour members quit party

Published Date: 16 March 2008
By Eddie Barnes
Political Editor

SCOTTISH Labour has lost nearly a quarter of its membership since the start of the war in Iraq, and looks set to be overtaken by the SNP as the country's biggest party.

New figures, to be released this week, show the former dominant force in Scottish politics now has just 18,000 fully paid-up members, compared to the list of 23,000 in 2002.

Membership has slumped by nearly half since the high point in the mid-Nineties when, on the cusp of power and led by a popular Tony Blair, the party had more than 30,000 signed-up members.

However, the latest drop in Labour's figures means the SNP could soon become the largest mass membership party in the country.

Doomed, Doomed and Dumbed
46

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:15:14
40

Why didnt Gordon Brown call an election when he took over the Labour party leadership?
47

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/06/2008 11:18:55
Just listen to SNP excuses for delaying this referendum!

What do we want? Independence!
When do we want it? Er, not just now, pal, eh?
48

John S,

22/06/2008 11:21:38
Wendy, an election or referendum which will come first ?
Wendy "we're going to have a referendum". 20 June 2008
Wendy said if the SNP don't get the LIT Bill through parliament she will put a vote of no confidence in the government so they will have to go to the people-Mar 29, 2008
49

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 11:23:11
50. How odd - the SNP manifesto clearly states it would introduce a referendum bill in 2010. Weird that they have "delayed" the year 2010 for political reasons - what will they do next, postpone Monday?

Strangely Labours 1997 manifesto promised a referendum on voting reform and one on the Euro. Their 2005 referendum promised a referendum on the EU constitutional treaty - I missed all three.
50

JayDeeTee,

22/06/2008 11:23:12
Editor......do us a favour with your next Wendy story. Don't publish a photo please. Puts me right off my porridge.
51

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:25:21
The Calman commission lacks the confidence to take a similar risk. It only seeks to engage with those who already agree with it and is threatened by any alternative view. This is an institution that belongs in the past. Even the royal commissions of old would have minority reports from dissenting members. The composition of Calman, crowded with establishment figures carefully selected for their loyalty to the status quo, makes that impossible. So tightly controlled was its selection process that George Reid, the highly respected former presiding officer of the parliament, was ruled out because he is a nationalist.

Calman is neither open nor inclusive - how could it be? It has a three monkeys remit. It cannot allow itself to hear, see or discuss the future favoured by a significant proportion of the population.

But given its origins, is anyone surprised?
52

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 11:27:29
40. Why don't Labour at Westminster bring it on? Why don't the Lib Dems? Why do Unionists keep mouthing off about a referendum instead of introducing one?
53

Daveunderwater,

b 22/06/2008 11:28:52
52

We can't have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty so there is no chance of a referendum on independence.

It's all about OIL
54

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:32:55
Westminster's unreasonable behaviour now encompasses threatening to withhold council tax benefit, trying to block local income tax, refusing to apply Barnett consequentials properly to prison spending and Olympic regeneration funding in London, and demanding payment from Tayside and Fife constabularies for security at the G8 and St Andrews summits.

The more that Westminster tries to lay down the law north of the border in clearly devolved areas, the greater the support there will be for independence and equality for Scotland. Bullies always get their comeuppance, and the reaction to this behaviour from London will be no different.

Whoever is running London Labour's campaign of aggression against the Scottish government, one thing is clear - it isn't anyone based in Scotland, or with a scintilla of understanding of Scotland.

Ten years on from the height of new Labour's power under Tony Blair, this latest campaign is a sad effort at control freakery. Unfortunately for them, it is all freakery and no control.

The new Labour project in Scotland is in its death throes. With a dithering leadership in London and an incoherent approach in Scotland, Labour is trying and failing to exert the iron grip it once had and took for granted - and it is totally uncomprehending of the loss of power and the new political reality it finds itself in.
55

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:40:01
SOARING oil prices would give an independent Scotland a £4.4 billion budget surplus, making it one of Europe's richest countries, according to a new study.

The surplus would allow Alex Salmond to maintain existing levels of public spending, while cutting corporation tax from 28% to 12.5%, reducing income tax by 5p in the pound and still having £2 billion every year to invest in a Norwegian-style oil fund to safeguard Scotland against a future decline in North Sea oil revenue.

The study, based on Treasury oil revenue forecasts and official spending figures, has calculated that, without money from the taxation of oil and gas, an independent Scotland would have an underlying deficit of £7.8billion. But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion.

The findings are likely to be seized on by Salmond to claim in a referendum campaign that an independent Scotland would be one of the wealthiest nations in Europe.

This would create problems for Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, who has indicated that she supports a vote on separation.
56

Daveunderwater,

Bennachie 22/06/2008 11:43:59
'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.'
Josef Goebbels. Hitler’s propaganda chief.
57

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:44:42
50

Why are you pretending your not a unionist? are you ashamed to be linked with this union I know I am.
The SNP clearly stated before the last election when they intended to hold a referendum if they won the election in their manifesto.
How many times has that little fact got to be pointed out to you before it sinks in?
Wendy not only wants to highjack the timetable but she wants to form the question as well and from the opposition benches why on earth should the SNP go along with that? for what possible reason should the SNP in government allow their manifesto policies to be controlled by the Labour party in opposition?
Would it make sense to you if they did?

58

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 11:48:27
40

London Labour were elected on a 35% minority vote so who should be dictating policy to them?
The Tories?
59

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/06/2008 12:05:29
#52 Ayr Scot..

SNP selects 2010 for its desired referendum. But why wouldn't it want one ASAP? Surely not because it thinks it might lose?

Possibly SNP wants to get all its bribes, er ducks, in a row, before it shoots them. Manipulation, or what? Mugabe would be proud of them.
60

cataibh,

Over the Struie 22/06/2008 12:05:59
I have waited patiently for over fifty years for independence another two years does not upset me.
61

European Unionist,

Edinburgh 22/06/2008 12:12:46
The latest and improved GERS statistics are precisely the sort of evidence that the electorate needs to have before it if it is to be asked in a referendum whether Scotland should become an independent state. Time is now needed for these particular figures to be reflected upon, together with figures for the following year when they eventually become available, so that the people can give mature consideration to the question of whether the demonstrable practicality of Scottish independence within the European Union should lead them to select that as their preferred constitutional option.

Other relevant factors should be subject to equally mature consideration in due course, such as the prospect of evolving EU foreign-affairs and defence-structure responsibilities, which will no doubt eventually reveal to us that as the 21st century unfolds a small EU member state such as independent Scotland will not be burdened with a requirement to provide its own separate diplomatic representation all over the globe or indeed its own army, navy and air force.

The unseemly rush to an independence referendum now apparently earnestly desired by Scottish Labour would mean that much of the emerging pertinent information needed by the electorate could not be adequately taken into account. This might suit the Brit nats, but it would deny the Scottish electorate the opportunity to appreciate fully just how practicable and desirable independent Scottish membership of the European Union could be.

The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland statistics for 2006/7, which show that Scotland is fiscally viable as an independent state, are a welcome contribution to the debate on whether British unionism, which arguably had something to commend it in the eighteenth century, should now be replaced in Scotland by a European unionism which recognizes Scotland's need and Scotland's right to be fully and appropriately represented in the supranational entity which is most important to us
62

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:14:20
63

Why didnt Gordon Brown hold an election when he took over from Blair? was he waiting for Alex Salmond to give him the go ahead do you think?
Are Labour waiting for the SNP to give them a date to hold a referendum on Europe?
63

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:15:17
65

And you think Gers are not party political then?
64

subrosa,

22/06/2008 12:15:56
This is just Wendy Alexander wanting to look like she cares. 'Bring it on'. Aye right. She's hoping that when the result does come then she can bleat 'I tried to force them to do one earlier to save all you lovely people the worry, stress and insecurity'. Who'll be listening? Nobody except perhaps Jackie Baillie.
65

Kent2,

22/06/2008 12:25:36
62
You never know what end the stuff comes out of with her
66

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:25:46
I've read the article and I fail to see how Wendy has locked herself into backing a referendum bill come what may, as the Nats' spin machine insists.

As Wendy's spokesman has made clear, there's no way she'll back the Nats' confusing legalese question. As far as I'm concerned, the Nats' question could have been invented by Mugabe himself (and I know that it's so worded for legal reasons, before you all start on me!)
67

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:27:49

Wendy says:
"I don't think it is in Scotland's interests to have this continuing uncertainty. We're going to have a referendum – get on – let the people of Scotland speak," she said."

What uncertainty? There will be a referendum on Independence in 2010 for certain! she is the one confusing the issue and causing the uncertainty by trying to change the timing and the question.
68

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:29:17
70

You mean it could have been worded by Mugabe after taking legal advice?
69

John S,

22/06/2008 12:35:49
Why doesn't Wendy propose a vote of no confidence in the Scottish Government if she is sure she will win ?
She knows she cannot propose a referendum to the SP, that is up to the present Scottish Government to decide when to put the proposal before the SP.
70

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:39:42
#72: if the Nats' question is the only one that the lawyers will sanction, then quite frankly Salmond should drop the whole idea and leave Westminster to set a question (if they're so minded!)

I repeat: the Nats' question is an affront to democracy in this country and any result based on this question would have all the credibility of a poll in a banana republic. End of!
71

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 12:45:21
76

So its ok for the Westminster government to derive a question with or without legal advice but its not ok for the Scottish government to derive a question with legal advice?
And that is what passes for democracy in your wee mind is it?
72

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:49:13
#77: you obviously don't know what you're talking about here. The SP can legally only hold a consultative referendum, hence the question. Westminster has complete control over constitutional questions and so can ask whatever question it wants. That's the legal position.
73

Publius,

Girvan 22/06/2008 12:54:16
#46 subrosa
You're missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon may not like hospital bugs (no-one does) but she seemed unaware of how to deal with them or when her civil servants found out about the outbreak. This makes her an inappropriate person to be a minister.

#47 MisterN
You're missing the point too. No party has an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament or is ever likely to. Labour is in denial. The SNP is trying to rule as though it does not need parliamentary approval for its actions. All parties have to learn that major legislation, such a referendum, can only pass with with the agreement of at least two parties.
74

brownlie,

22/06/2008 12:55:16
70 Stuntman

I see you live up to your name. Your somersault in the last paragraph was spectacular - nonsensical, but spectacular!
75

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 12:57:42
#80: maybe I'm not tuned into Nat logic (god help me!) but what nonsensical somersault would that be, pray tell!
76

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 22/06/2008 13:01:09
I think the problem which is exascerbated by the bias in the press is that there a lack of maturity in the debate about independence.

All my life I've wanted independence but I know that people want a good debate on the subject. The fact that we are denied an informed debate is an argument against the union.

If unionists do not understand that they have to raise the standard they will lose.

It is now time for the Libs and the Tories to explain why Labour is backing a referedum but they are denying people that right.

Bring on 2010!
77

brownlie,

22/06/2008 13:03:12
81 Stuntman

You say that the question is legal and compare it with Mugable. Are you really suggesting that it is legal to murder your political opponents?
78

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:06:34
#83 brownlie: the question may be legal, but it's doing no service to democracy if it just confuses the public at large. The Mugabe comparison reflects the attempt to confuse and nothing more.
79

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:09:44
78

So how does the question of control over constitutional questions get raised within a democracy then?
80

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:10:36
84

The question doesnt confuse me what do you find confusing about it?
81

brownlie,

22/06/2008 13:11:28
84 Stuntman

How arrogant to assume that you understand the question but the "public at large" would be confused.

Any comparison between Mugabe and current Scottish politicians, even those who accept illegal donations, is quite reprehensible.
82

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:12:24
#86: it produces significantly higher support than any other question in opinion polls, so the public out there are all too obviously confused by it. This isn't rocket science!
83

Daveunderwater,

22/06/2008 13:13:16
http://vote-about.com/UK/gordon-brown/poll.php?ref=Brown+Dump+28
84

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:14:47
88

Are you a troll?
85

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:18:14
#90: no. I'm an Edinburgh citizen with something to say and intent on Edinburgh regaining its Nat free zone status asap!
86

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:19:37
91

Na only a troll would post that comment at 88.
87

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:22:38
#92: you're deflecting because my response at #88 is unanswerable. How does saying it like it is make me a troll? Have you seen me suggesting that the SNP should be outlawed or something, because that's what I would post if I were really a troll! Get out of your ivory tower and enter the real world!
88

 Ayrshire Scot™,

22/06/2008 13:23:23
74. ­c­rap, I can write it
89

MisterN,

Scotland 22/06/2008 13:28:15
93

First off your comment at 88 is not in the form of a question therefore there is no answer required it is simply an opinion.
And secondly it doesnt make a bit of sense maybe you would like to clarify it with something that does?
90

Stuntman Mike,

22/06/2008 13:30:32
#95: why doesn't it make sense? There's a Nat friendly question and a "unionist" friendly question and I don't see how democracy in this country is being served by this. Enough of your sophistry already!
91

John S,

22/06/2008 13:33:01
#84:Straight forward question - Do you want the provisions of the Scotland Act 1978 to be put into effect ? yes or no.
Now the confused part at least 40% of the eligible electorate voted "yes" for the Act to be put into effect and that provision wasn't included on the ballot paper.
Now the result was Yes - 51.6%:No - 48.4% again straight forward but no instead 62.7% of those who voted would have to vote yes for the provisions to be put into effect.
The question the SNP is proposing to ask is straight forward when compared to what the Scottish voters were asked in 1979.
92

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 13:57:29
98 AM2,Scotland,UK

The SNP proposal is the only LEGAL way for the Scottish Government to ask the question without the support of Westminister.

Everyone in Scotland should know about this vote on Independence, everyone should know what the SNP stand for and I have full confidence that the Scots will understand that this is a vote to stay Politically linked to London.
93

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:20:39
100 AM2,Scotland,UK

Attempt would imply that the Scottish Gov would try to get Independence but may not be successful.

In otherwords the United KIngdom Gov may try harder to ensure Scotland stays within the United Kingdom and go against the will of the people.

At the end of the day the Unionists do claim to have a majority for the Union why should they be afraid of loosing 10% of the vote? Because according to the Unionists only 1 third support Independence?

Unless they are underestimating the support for Independence so the little points like the wording DO matter?
94

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:25:20
Also,

Why did they write "UK" instead of the positive, human connotations of "United Kingdom"?

Why not just "British Government"?

Scotland would leave the United Kingdom. Britain only consists of Scotland, England and Wales but we would also leave the Political Union with Northern Ireland.

Hence, written on your password 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'
95

ThomasP,

22/06/2008 14:28:29
103 AM2,Scotland,UK

Again, attempt only aplies that they would try. However if a majority voted for Independence then they would expect the Government to get Independence.

Your new paragraph neglects Northern Ireland. Britain does not consist of Northern Ireland.

"AND THE REMAINDER OF BRITAIN BECOME TWO SEPARATE STATES."

And Northern Ireland?