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They fought the law and the law won



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Published Date:
14 October 2007
SOMETIMES, punishments don't seem to fit crimes. But, when the Old Firm met 20 years ago this week, the absence of a real crime failed to prevent punishment of an unprecedented nature. And the winding, wilfully obtuse and downright whacky route from football clash to courtroom stramash guarantees the 2-2 draw between the ancient Glasgow rivals at Ibrox on Saturday, October 17, 1987 will forever retain a unique infamy.
Neither before nor since has the derby led to breach of the peace charges against any players. Argy-bargy between Celtic's Frank McAvennie and Rangers English trio Chris Woods, Terry Butcher and Graham Roberts that fraught, fearsomely fiery afternoon, however, was all the authorities required to make an example of miscreant footballers.

They attempted to throw the book at Goldilocks and the Three Bears, as the quartet became known, and ended up creating a warped fairytale - with only a partial happy ending. At a hearing the following April, McAvennie was found not guilty and Roberts not proven. Woods was found guilty and fined £500 and Butcher found guilty and fined £250.

All because, in the 17th minute of that fateful encounter, McAvennie clipped Woods round the lug, only for the keeper to respond by thumping him on the face with his forearm. Butcher then joined the fray and pushed the Celtic striker away before Roberts steamed in and grabbed his opponent by the throat and knocked him to the ground.

"It is so crazy, so far-fetched what followed that day. And it is bloody Sod's Law that the first time the police got involved in a football game, I just had to be in the middle of it," says McAvennie. "The scrap between us is the sort of thing that happens in football games up and down the country every week. There was a lot of tension and we were all maybe a bit hyped up. But, really, I only raised my hand to stop me falling over. Three bigger boys did the naughty stuff, honest."

The altercation was certainly unedifying, as so much of the sectarian-scarred contest was back then. But it made for a football spectacle of the most compelling, car-wreck-entertaining, kind. As did a scattering of moments during a confrontation later described as "the best Old Firm game I ever played in" by Andy Walker, who opened the scoring for Celtic in the 33rd minute. From the early exchanges - when McAvennie bundled Woods into the net because he liked "hitting keepers" - till the 92nd minute - when emergency goalkeeper Roberts conducted a rendition of The Sash by Rangers fans once Richard Gough had netted a last-gasp equaliser for a home side who had been 2-0 down - it was gladiatorial combat at its rawest.

And Butcher seemed constantly in the thick of it. Booked for his part in the defining melee, he deflected the ball into his own net for the 35th minute counter that led Peter Grant to celebrate by blessing himself in the front of the Celtic support. Finally, Butcher was sent-off, shortly after Ally McCoist had pulled a goal back in the 65th minute.

"Everything happened to me in four-and-a-half years at Rangers and quite a few things were sparked by those two hours," he says. "But kids not born then will see the incident we ended up in court for and be left asking: what the hell was that all about?"

For Butcher, it was all about a sinister desire of the British government to put football and footballers in their place. Hooliganism that blighted the 1980s, most shamefully at Heysel in 1985, had caused the sport to be viewed in political circles as a stain on society. "I have no doubt that there was government interference and pressure applied from the highest level to bring convictions against us. We were convenient scapegoats, we were the role models who had to be slapped down and told how to behave so that the supporters would get the message. It was pathetic, but made for a nightmare time as the legal wheels turned," he says.

McAvennie shares Butcher's belief that unseen forces were driving a case that rapidly began to appear comical. Not that he is willing to absolve the game's officialdom. "The referee, Jake Duncan, panicked," he says. "I don't think he ever took charge of another high profile game and I don't have an ounce of sympathy. I remember when he showed Chris the red, I thought 'God, that's harsh' as I waited for a yellow. When he then sent me off as well, I just could not believe it."

In the immediate aftermath, the two club chairman, David Holmes of Rangers and Jack McGinn of Celtic, held a three-hour meeting at which they discussed possible implications. Glasgow's Procurator Fiscal, Sandy Jessop, swung into action and, on November 1, the quartet were summoned to Govan police station to face the charge of "conduct likely to provoke a breach of the peace among spectators".

"I remember getting a call from my manager, big Billy McNeill, on a Sunday morning telling me I had to go along that day," McAvennie says. "I had been out the night before for a good few drinks, surprisingly, and my head wasn't exactly right, so I couldn't really take it in. As I headed into the station, there were so many photographers' flashbulbs going off I felt as if I was walking down a catwalk."

Over the next couple of weeks, suspicions firmed up that worldwide publicity the case was attracting merely strengthened the prosecutor's determination to press for convictions. The two clubs agreed a joint defence and appointed one of Scotland's best-known solicitors, Len Murray, to represent the players. Initially, Murray sought to coax Jessop to drop the matter. Instead, the Procurator Fiscal intimated in the pair's early discussions that he could have gone further and obtained convictions against Grant and Roberts for "provocative" gestures.

Jessop insisted to Murray that the final decision on any court appearance for the four accused rested entirely with him. Yet, this seemed to run contrary to his admission that he had sought advice from the Crown Office and watched a videotape of the incident in the company of the Solicitor-General for Scotland, the Lord Advocate and two Advocates-Depute. It also emerged Jessop felt pricked to pursue the case following Butcher's downplaying of Roberts' conducting act in the Rangers News that he perceived as failing to appreciate the seriousness of the matter.

On November 20, the charge against the players was refined to "while participating in a football match, you did conduct yourself in a disorderly manner and commit a breach of the peace". For Butcher, then confined to his bed having suffered a leg break the previous week, this necessitated a visit from the other boys in blue.

"It was ridiculous," he says. "This big constable had to come into my room and he was mortified. 'I know this is daft and I hate to do this Terry as a big Rangers supporter, but I have to charge you,' he said. It would have been laughable were it not so serious."

The trial began on April 12, 1988. The assistant chief constable of Strathclyde, John Dickson, spent a day in the witness stand giving the impression that the actions of McAvennie, Woods, Butcher and Roberts had come dangerously close to provoking public disorder on a grand scale. "There was unbridled hatred on the faces of some of the fans when they were shouting obscenities and insults at each other." Without enlisting reinforcements in response to the incident, Dickson insisted a pitch invasion would have ensued.

Passing sentence, Sheriff Archibald McKay said Woods' involvement had been much more serious than the others stating that video "clearly established that you jabbed McAvennie on the chin with your left forearm. It was an assault which constituted breach of the peace." The sheriff also deemed Butcher guilty of a "violent push...which might reasonably have been expected to upset other Celtic players and their support". In summing up, he damned all the codefendants, who sat in the dock together. "A large percentage of supporters are readily converted by breaches of the peace into two rival mobs. That they were not so transformed is no credit to you. You must have been aware of your wider responsibilities and you failed to discharge them."

McAvennie still sees the case differently. "Chris and Terry were given criminal records because we four players were exploited to further the ambitions of others in legal circles. We were a test case. No actions have been brought against players in similar fashion since 1987 because the test failed."

The jailing of Duncan Ferguson over his headbutt on Jock McStay in 1995 doesn't stand comparison. Ferguson then was on probation for an earlier offence. Butcher believes the authorities never again will wade in to the football domain with tackety boots because they now respect the game's disciplinary procedures. Doing so in 1987, however, almost brought about drastic consequences. "Because Rangers felt we had been victimised, they said they wouldn't stand in our way if we wanted to go back down south," Butcher reveals. "But I told [Graeme] Souness I wanted to stay."

The defender admits he and his countrymen allowed themselves to be "sucked in" to the unseemly side of the Old Firm. And for Murray, the case was best summed up by the supposed quirks of some south of the Border. "There is an old Turkish saying which goes 'An Englishman will burn his bed to catch a flea'," the solicitor said. "The Crown burned its bed."

The full article contains 1625 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 October 2007 9:48 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: The Old Firm
 
1

Katie Chops,

13/10/2007 23:32:01

"All because, in the 17th minute of that fateful encounter, McAvennie clipped Woods round the lug, only for the keeper to respond by thumping him on the face with his forearm"

why don't we call the clip round the lug a "tap" that seems to be the fashion now.

Old Frankie boy kicked all off and was the only one to walk from it scot free - justice eh!?

2

Teary Ennui,

13/10/2007 23:35:48

The criminal law should stay out of onfield events - unless something totally extreme happens, like a murder. It's ludicrous that two Rangers players got a criminal record for a bit of pushing.

3

Fayneant,

NZ 14/10/2007 01:12:32

Is it really 20 years ago?!? I feel very old all of a sudden...!
Remember the day well - incredible comeback by Rangers to draw the game.
The biggest injustice was the fact that Roberts escaped a conviction when he was the most guilty of all 4 of them, running across to get involved in what was handbags at twenty paces until then.
Had forgotten about the Grant crossing himself incident - how we have all moved onwards and upwards since then, eh....???

4

the boxerman,

getting cold in toronto 14/10/2007 01:15:02

I was at the game. Handbags at six paces.

It was exciting though, and what a finish with Gough scoring that goal and Roberts conducting Copland Road chorus.

Rangers finished with nine men with Roberts in goal.

We should have murdered them, but we won the league anyway, lol.

5

Fayneant,

NZ 14/10/2007 01:25:49

In those days McAvennie was a player not to be sniffed at, unlike the contents of the plastic bag in his pooch!

6

Bill Turnbull,

Ankara Turkey 14/10/2007 06:56:48

McAvennie the bigot could not handle 3 big name English players playing for the team he hates hence the reason he threw a tantrum in his own bigoted way

7

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 07:34:17

The behaviour of the Gers players was criminal.

Quite appropriate though for a Club that was at the peak of it's anti Catholic "heritage".

1987 eh? Any Catholics in the Gers team that day? That year?

Any known Catholics in the Gers first team from the end of 1945 til that day? 42 years?

Sickening Club attracts players that became criminals the most disgusting bigots as their fans. Still.....as long as there no Catholics about the place, eh? ;-|

8

kt,

Portugal 14/10/2007 07:50:46

Its the in-firm fans that caused the players to be charged.

As the report says, "The scrap between us is the sort of thing that happens in football games up and down the country every week...."........but because of the bigot brothers loathing for each other and the lack of grey matter and reasoning in most, it could easily have turned nasty in the stands and on the streets in future games.......

9

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:03:58

kt 9,

what a strange post.

When you say in-firm, I guess you mean Old Firm....but the Old Firm has no fans.

Celtic have fans, and Ragers have fans....but no-one supports the Old Firm.

Now, turning to your quip re the Bigot Brothers, I can tell you only one of the Bigot Brothers were involved that day: Ragers. Not sure who the other - Hearts - were playing that day...

10

Thommo,

14/10/2007 08:20:06

"1987 eh? Any Catholics in the Gers team that day? That year?" (8)

Yeah John Spencer made his Rangers debut that year.

Is that you, John/Chatta/etc/etc/etc?

11

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:24:33

Thommo 11

Thank you for answering one of my questions, Thommo. How about the others?

Any Catholics in the Gers team that day? THOMMO ????

That year? ONE - JOHN SPENCER

Any known Catholics in the Gers first team from the end of 1945 til that day? 42 years? THOMMO?????

12

kt,

14/10/2007 08:25:53

I mean that both sets of fans can be described as infirm, the majority of times!! Just ask any other Scottish football fan when they- the bigot brothers-come to their town.....

You may be surprised to learn that, outside of the infirm, both Celtc(!) and the other half of the dark side are grouped together. They are both as bad as each other and thoroughly deserve each other.

13

Thommo,

14/10/2007 08:32:06

Well Chatta (12), what you usually tell us is that one Catholic played for Rangers' first team in the forty years after WWII (did I get your carefully worded formula right?).

14

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:32:22

Yet more stunning ignorance, kt 13.

Tell me in what way Celtic & Rangesr fans can be described as "infirm" - when fans of other Clubs are not.

When do fans of Rangers and Haerts go to a town together?

By what measure can Celtic fans be deemed as bad as Rangers fans?

15

Thommo,

14/10/2007 08:33:22

Oh sorry Chatta, it's "known" Catholic isn't it? Though how you know what people at Rangers knew, I don't know. ;0)

16

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:34:37

Thommo 14

You can hardly argue that my "formula" is restrictive, can you, Thommo? I mean......FORTY €UCKIN YEARS!!!

Now, can I have some straight answers, please?

Any Catholics in the Gers team that day? THOMMO ????

That year? ONE - JOHN SPENCER

Any known Catholics in the Gers first team from the end of 1945 til that day? 42 years? THOMMO?????

17

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:40:38

Thommo

Gone reticent Thommo?

Truth aversion kicking in?

Ashamed?

18

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 08:41:04

Thommo

Ashamed?

You should be.

19

Thommo,

14/10/2007 08:42:15

Calm down, John/Chatta/whatever.

"Any Catholics in the Gers team that day?"

Don't you mean "known" Catholics? And how do you know what people at Rangers knew?

"That year? ONE - JOHN SPENCER"

Is that just the "known" ones? Or do you know about the unkown ones too?

"Any known Catholics in the Gers first team from the end of 1945 til that day? 42 years?"

You have told us many times before there was one (one "known" one, of course). Were you wrong?

Why all the different names anyway, Chatta/John/etc/etc? Do your names keep getting banned because you repeatedly post nasty stuff?

20

kt,

14/10/2007 08:44:37

Moral Inferiority.....

As I said in post 9, and seems to be justified by your ramblings - the lack of grey matter amongst the infirm seems to be P-R-E-V-A-L-E-N-T.

21

Just the Craic,

West Lothian 14/10/2007 08:57:29

Rangers have had many Catholic players throughout their history.

But as ever with life in Scotland if you put a lie forward often enough it becomes fact.

Rapid Vienna - game replayed in 1984 after a bottle was thrown. Rapid players assaulted in the rematch at Old Trafford, Celtic fans attacking players on the pitch during that match.

Hugh Dallas coined in 1999. 2 Celtic fans on the field of play trying to attack the ref.
Hugh had his windows put in that night by a Celtic season ticket holder.

Ricksen hit by a lighter at Parkhead, the fan was never traced.

The latest incident when McHendry ran onto the park.

Reyna mocked by celtic fans over 9/11.

Thats for starters. Self proclaimed greatest fans in the world. I don't think so.

Back to the action 20 years ago. The druggie kicked it off and should have been sent off for his assault on Woods.

The last minute goal by Gough and your still hurting 20 years later. Time you moved on with your life.

Roberts conducting the Rangers fans, superb.

22

kt,

14/10/2007 09:12:09

just the craic

nearly proved the infirm grey matter theory wrong but the last sentence in the post gave it away.

As for the "assault" on Woods, I seem to remember players of Terry Hurlock's finesse and caliber doing a lot worse on the pitch!

back to the other half of the dark side......

23

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 09:34:10

Thommo 20,

Ah, so you toook the truth aversion option.

I feel your shame.

24

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 09:39:57

Just the craic 22,

Quote:

"Rangers have had many Catholic players throughout their history."

That's just yer wee lie. It's just not true.

List all the known Catholics signed by RFC that played in the first team in the 40 years after WW2.

25

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 09:40:44

kt 23

what Hearts have got to do with this?

26

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 09:42:47

kt

I see you were unable to answer the simple questions I set you earlier. Were they too hard?

Here they are again:

Tell me in what way Celtic & Ragers fans can be described as "infirm" - when fans of other Clubs are not.

When do fans of Ragers and Haerts go to a town together?

By what measure can Celtic fans be deemed as bad as Ragers fans?

27

Katie Chops,

London 14/10/2007 09:51:05

I think one of my most bizarre sight that day ( mentioned in the article) was seeing Peter Grant running to the Broomloan Road stand, hate contorting his face, dropping to his knees and blessing himself to celebrate Terry Butcher scoring and own goal.

I expect we will be hearing Grant as a pundit on Radio Clyde any day soon – he will feel at home!

28

kt,

14/10/2007 09:53:16

Mougul inferiority,

P-R-E-V-A-L-E-N-T means widespread or in general use or acceptance. Add that to the end of the sentence - "lack of grey matter is...." and related it to the infirm "fans", perhaps such as yourself....

Now, let me wait for the predictable response....

C'mon parrot.......

29

,

14/10/2007 10:01:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1054521, Article id was mapped to record!
30

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:03:42

Katie 28

Surely contempt is an appropriate response for the massed FTP follow followers of the worst anti catholic Club in Europe?

Had a Jew shown hate to an assembly of Nazis would you have criticised him?

31

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:07:12

kt 29

Oh, I'm well aware of the meaniong of the words you use son, and I'm similarly aware you are unabvle to answer these simple questions.

Listen son...if you're gonn a come on a site like this and make stupid posts, you're gonna be challenged by the decent people here.

Again....here's the questions you're frightened of:

Tell me in what way Celtic & Ragers fans can be described as "infirm" - when fans of other Clubs are not.

When do fans of Ragers and Hearts go to a town together?

By what measure can Celtic fans be deemed as bad as Ragers fans?

32

MMM1285,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 10:12:46

Moral Superiority ....

You have to move on sir, you seem to be stuck in a catholic bigoted world.

Even Big Jock Knew that !!

33

MMM1285,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 10:13:40

Moral Superiority ....

You have to move on sir, you seem to be stuck in a catholic bigoted world.

Even Big Jock Knew that !!

34

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:14:59

kt 21

I can see you're strruyggling son, so here's a wee clue...

You suggest a "lack of grey matter" prevails amongst supporters of Rangers and Celtic....

Now, are you suggesting this deficiency is limited to Gers and Celts?

There's a differing level of intelligence amongst supporters of others Clubs? Example: Hearts supporters?

35

Katie Chops,

London 14/10/2007 10:15:50

32

Extraordinary analogy you use there, trivialising the suffering of millions of Jewish people during WWII but I would think a bit more before you mention Catholics and Nazi’s together.

You will only look very stupid.

36

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:16:27

MMM 1285

Oh, I moved on a long time ago.....but has RFC?

The Rangers FC = worst bigots in Europe. Big Jock knew that.

37

,

14/10/2007 10:16:34
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1054575, Article id was mapped to record!
38

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:19:13

Kate 36

You reckon my analogy is extraordinary, Katie?

Really?

Nazi salutes?

Delusions of master race? WATP etc.

Mass pathalogical hatred of members of one religion?

Contempt for massed evils gathered together in a Club built on bigotry and badness seems entirely appropriate.

Do you condemn the FTP scvm who gathered there, Katie?

39

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 14/10/2007 10:19:47

oh katie calm down...its us celtic fans that are paranoid...x

40

sonofcosmos,

glasgow 14/10/2007 10:20:36

oh and katie..moral superiority is a fud x

41

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:25:54

The outstanding behaviour of Celts in Milan follow followed by the appalling conduct of Gers in Pamplona begs a vital question: how can the Dear Green Place - Mother Glasgow - sire such different groups?

We live on the same streets; watch the same TV; drink the same beer; eat the same food – and yet Celts are held in affection across Europe, but Gers in almost universal contempt.

Sure, the Clubs themselves have fostered different collective cultures. CFC is built on charity and goodness to feed starving paupers in the east end in the 1880s, it’s charitable legacy lives on to this day. And the Club itself unilaterally and of its own volition attacked the unsavouries and sought to rid CFC of sectarianism.

Conversely, through the majority of it’s existence, RFC has fostered bigotry and badness. Post WW1 it imported anti Catholic vitriol from scvm from Harland & Wolf in Belfast and then carefully nurtured evil for decades.

Supposed anti sectarian ventures have always been belated, tepid, and forced. Witness the video of the Vice Chairman singing anti Catholic anthems on Club premises, and witness the Club selling ORANGE strips: the lure of the bigots’ £ was always too strong for The Rangers FC.

To this day, RFC lack the moral courage to attack bigotry and put it in it’s place. Witness the “RHOU” explanation for Nazi Seig Heil salutes, and the farcical denials and excuses trotted out after scandalous events such as Villareal & Pamplona.

So….the core question remain: what separates Celts from Gers? What makes Celts behave soooooooooooo much better?

42

Boberto,

14/10/2007 10:26:33

An amazing incident, getting back to the actual story rather than the familiar twisted ramblings. They'd better not convict every footballer who did what Terry Butcher did or we'll have to build many, many new courts.

43

Big jock really did know,

ibrox stadium 14/10/2007 10:27:16

Moral Superiority you truly are a first class fud oh and a blinkered biased BIGOT who cant accept any argument towards your scum hoops.I have many friends who support your lot and yes they hate rangers but at least accept an arguemt.not like you. your right everyone else(as long as they support the blue half) are wrong.people lioke you make me sick and gordon smith was also right to come out with those comments.He only has to look at you as an example.

44

,

14/10/2007 10:27:43
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45

,

14/10/2007 10:29:15
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46

I-Mac,

14/10/2007 10:29:20

"The outstanding behaviour of Celts in Milan" (42)

That'll be the game where Celtic were fined by UEFA for bottle-throwing - and there was more bottle-throwing by Celtic fans outside the ground, at the media bus.

47

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 10:29:27

#22
As you state about telling lies often enough they become fact read them & weep :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3...

48

,

14/10/2007 10:32:06
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49

,

14/10/2007 10:32:16
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50

,

14/10/2007 10:34:25
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51

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 10:35:55

#8........ Excellent post .You tell it as it really was in those days. However,let us not forget that the S.F.A. were cheer-leaders for such bigotry.It is only of recent times that football's European officialdom has forced the bigots in the SFA to take action against such hatred and sectarian bigotry at Ibrox.

52

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 10:37:04

# 49 How can you talk about decency with a name like yours, you are a disgrace !

53

,

14/10/2007 10:38:11
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54

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:38:41

Hunky Dorey 52

Thanks. I'll repeat it here for the various apologists for the insitutional bigotry of RFC that have gathered here. They stink.

___________________________________________

POST #8

The behaviour of the Gers players was criminal.

Quite appropriate though for a Club that was at the peak of it's anti Catholic "heritage".

1987 eh? Any Catholics in the Gers team that day? That year?

Any known Catholics in the Gers first team from the end of 1945 til that day? 42 years?

Sickening Club attracts players that became criminals the most disgusting bigots as their fans. Still.....as long as there no Catholics about the place, eh? ;-|

55

,

14/10/2007 10:39:45
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56

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 10:39:58

#54
An EX police officer, this is the sort of stuff you really couldn't make up !

57

,

14/10/2007 10:42:06
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58

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:42:42

BTW Hunky Dorey....I guess you're a Bowie fan?

59

,

14/10/2007 10:43:26
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60

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 10:46:54

#29..... You are an ars***le my friend .Get off the thread and leave it to those who are prepared to deal in facts, not fiction. Thommo, ........... You have not thus far answered any of Moral superiority's questions. Is it shame which causes this lack of response?

61

Big jock really did know,

ibrox stadium 14/10/2007 10:49:01

not that its your business I left on medical grounds wasnt kicked out didnt resign under a cloud and Ill add call me a paedo again and I will report you to the site admin.as I said you clearly have no reason of a balanced debate or argument

62

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 10:49:39

#58
This is a football thread (all be it one that touches on our fine custodians of the law, ironically the 1 in the story called in to arrest the now "decent" Terry Butcher was also a supporter of your team). I feel sullied by even communicating with someone who can call themselves by your name & seems pre occupied with the word "paedo". Well that's it I am off for a shower !

63

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 10:52:01

HD 61

Here's another question they habitually avoid:

Why did you walk past scores of decent Clubs in Scotland to choose to follow follow the Club widely recognised as the worst bigots in Europe?

Did you see it as a reflection of your own prejudices?

64

,

14/10/2007 10:55:02
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65

,

14/10/2007 10:58:10
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66

kt,

14/10/2007 10:59:17

Mother Superior....

OK, u win, I take it back re the grey matter and just related it to you.......you really appear to be something of a neanderthal of a Celtc(!) follower.

I think you have answered the questions and proved my points yourself...

Who mentioned this in terms of infirm fans having a deficiency....oh aye thats correct, it was you.

67

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 11:03:07

#36 Katie......... Your post suggests to me that you also are prepared to "cover up" the blatant sectarian hatred and bigotry that was for 106 years official policy at sectarian central (ibrox).Do not attempt to elevate the Jewish people above Scotland's Roman Catholcs. It is said that we were all created equally.You obviously dont believe that. I would suggest that it also took 106 years for that message to reach sectarian central.

68

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 11:04:42

#66 (I will not refer to you by your name)

Talk about pot kettle & black, you can't take it when someone labels you as a paedo (why is this word being used on a football thread, to all decent supporters of any club on here I apologise for my use of it !)

I hope the admin take into account your name when any action is considered. The thought that you once represented the law fills me with dread .

69

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 11:06:57

# 66 Your ignorant post and foul language would indeed suggest that you are in some way connected to "ibrox stadium"

70

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 11:07:30

kt 67

So, you're reduced now to adolescent insults.

You dont have ANYTHING relevant to say here, son, do you?

71

Big jock really did know,

ibrox stadium 14/10/2007 11:08:54

stevie in my line of duty had I uncovered or knew about sexual abuse of minors I would not have swept it under the carpet.for the record I didnt believe all this until billy mcniell came out and said it was an open secret that stein did in fact know.so im afraid pot kettle and black isnt even close.I also tried to change my username as i was a bit rash in using it(call it anger at what i was reading or wahtever)but that in no way excuses what this idiot has typed.Its libel and that is indeed not allowed.

72

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 11:10:51

Paedo 66

Ex Police seeking legal advice re my referring to you as a paedo on this website? You're hilarious paedo!!!

From your Police career (before you were kicked out) can you just tell me which law you think I have broken?

73

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 11:11:32

#72

Its libel and that is indeed not allowed

Errrm....... lets take a look at this poster's name please !

74

,

14/10/2007 11:12:14
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75

,

14/10/2007 11:12:14
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76

,

14/10/2007 11:13:15
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77

,

14/10/2007 11:13:57
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78

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 11:17:43

Why has this campaign to sully the memory of 1 of Scotland's finest sportsmen suddenly come to light, after years & years. The reason wouldn't be because fans of certain CLUBS in Scotland are no longer allowed to sign songs of hatred (going back even longer in history some 300 + years !)

79

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 11:20:20

Or would it ??????

80

I-Mac,

14/10/2007 11:22:30

No, it's to do with the campaign to get the person concerned a knighthood.

81

,

14/10/2007 11:24:06
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82

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 11:24:55

I-Mac 81

Should John Stein be knighted, I-Mac?

83

,

14/10/2007 11:26:00
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84

kt,

14/10/2007 11:26:53

#71

In what respect is calling Moral Inferiority a Neanderthal insulting? and to whom?

85

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 11:27:46

#44....".Moral Superiority you trully are a first class fud oh and a blinkered biased bigot who cant accept any argument towards your SCUM "HOOPS" This is the guy who is calling Moral Superiority a bigot.Can anyone of you people out there see the connection? Moral Superiority,I think you should retire for your morning coffee.It is obvious that these ibrox bigots are indifferent to there appalling past, and that your genuine efforts to confront them is a complete waste of time. The first casualty in any war is the truth. Best wishes H.D.

86

,

14/10/2007 11:35:31
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87

Wullie67,

Copenhagen 14/10/2007 11:47:45

Thanks guys. Now I remember why I left Scotland. Two sets of glory hunting parasites argueing about which is more bigotted...

88

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 11:51:31

Wullie,

there's no such argument here.

ALL Clubs in Scotland have bigots amongst their fan base. ALL.

Because of the anti Catholic heritage of The Rangers FC, they have attracted a massive following of bigots.

They are, by far, the most bigoted Club in Europe.

89

Moral Superiority,

14/10/2007 11:52:48

To help you a wee bit more, Wullie....

The outstanding behaviour of Celts in Milan follow followed by the appalling conduct of Gers in Pamplona begs a vital question: how can the Dear Green Place - Mother Glasgow - sire such different groups?

We live on the same streets; watch the same TV; drink the same beer; eat the same food – and yet Celts are held in affection across Europe, but Gers in almost universal contempt.

Sure, the Clubs themselves have fostered different collective cultures. CFC is built on charity and goodness to feed starving paupers in the east end in the 1880s, it’s charitable legacy lives on to this day. And the Club itself unilaterally and of its own volition attacked the unsavouries and sought to rid CFC of sectarianism.

Conversely, through the majority of it’s existence, RFC has fostered bigotry and badness. Post WW1 it imported anti Catholic vitriol from scvm from Harland & Wolf in Belfast and then carefully nurtured evil for decades.

Supposed anti sectarian ventures have always been belated, tepid, and forced. Witness the video of the Vice Chairman singing anti Catholic anthems on Club premises, and witness the Club selling ORANGE strips: the lure of the bigots’ £ was always too strong for The Rangers FC.

To this day, RFC lack the moral courage to attack bigotry and put it in it’s place. Witness the “RHOU” explanation for Nazi Seig Heil salutes, and the farcical denials and excuses trotted out after scandalous events such as Villareal & Pamplona.

So….the core question remain: what separates Celts from Gers? What makes Celts behave soooooooooooo much better?

90

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 14/10/2007 12:19:31

#88.........Do not attempt to associate Celtic FC with the appalling bigotry which has for decades been official policy at Rangers FC. I am glad to hear that you left this country. However there are some amongst us who are prepared to stay and confront our persecutors. You obviously could not take the heat,so you left the kitchen. KITCHEN ? mmmmmmmm lots of goodies to eat mmmmmmm Am awa tae the kitchen tae stuff ma face. Confront all you bigots later! HD.

91

Stevie1888,

14/10/2007 12:22:47

# 91

I only came on the Scotsman this morning to read about yesterday's fine win, was enticed in by the headline " They fought the law...." and could not believe the rantings of an EX custodian of our supposed just & fair police force (what force he used to be in, the SS or RUC perhaps I can't imagine).

But I agree, a great win by Scotland, the feelgood factor certainly by passed this thread !

92

Boberto,

14/10/2007 13:05:09

"Interesting that Sandy Jessop threatened to charge Peter Grant for the "provocative gesture" of blessing himself. Have we really moved on so much when almost 20 years later Artur Boruc is actually cautioned for the same thing?" (95)

But he wasn't.

93

BEMUSED EXILE,

Telling it like it is... 14/10/2007 13:11:17

I was a little surprised to see this thread nearing the 100 posts mark, almost as popular as the main Scotland game thread.

but then I realised that 25 of the threads are from the saddest poster in town, and another 20 have been removed.

so, not really that much going on after all, is there?

94

Boberto,

14/10/2007 13:23:38

Nope.

95

BEMUSED EXILE,

Telling it like it is... 14/10/2007 13:28:41

Dig in boys.

Do you get a feeling this one could run and run?

96

Boberto,

14/10/2007 13:33:36

Nah.

The Crown Office made it clear that the decision to give Boruc a warning "did not in any way refer to the act of blessing himself":

http://www.crownoffice.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/13547/0000188.pdf

The Roman Catholic Church accepted, indeed welcomed, the Crown Office statement:

http://www.swiftstuff.com/archives/2006/08/statement_from...

97

Mercutio,

Falkirk 14/10/2007 13:35:35

Do we really have to have this Old Firm Crap every week, it is nauseating in the extreme and it only reinforces the notion that Scotland is "the best wee sectarian country in the world".

98

BEMUSED EXILE,

Telling it like it is... 14/10/2007 13:42:58

Game, set and match, Boberto.

James is having a bad week!!!

99

Black Skull,

it was only juan guy.again 14/10/2007 13:58:03

Celtic fans make me laugh

100

Wee Fred,

14/10/2007 14:10:42

Moral Superiority


You seem to be obsessed with sectarian employment policies which went on many years ago.


I take it you will utterly condemn any organisation which discriminates against people on grounds of religion in 2007?

101

Katie Chops,

London 14/10/2007 14:20:46

Ah the memories of this game come flooding back.

I seem to remember Terry Butcher got a second yellow card and sent off for a shove (won't call it a gentle tap) on Alan McKnight who went down feigning an injury to his face.

The shove was nowhere near his face and would not have knocked a child over.

Dida anyone?

102

Wee Fred,

14/10/2007 14:33:35

Its amazing how when facts stare them in the face sellik fans just ignore them and believe what they want to believe.


Any views on sectarian employment policies james?

103

Black Skull,

it was only juan guy.again 14/10/2007 14:34:58

so what your saying is he wasn't cautioned for blessing himself then ? it was indeed for other gestures.