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Fury over veto of UN sanctions on Mugabe



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Published Date: 13 July 2008
INTERNATIONAL condemnation grew yesterday over the decision by Russia and China to veto a Western-backed UN Security Council resolution which would have imposed an arms embargo on Zimbabwe and financial and travel restrictions on President Robert Mugabe and 13 other officials.
However, the failure to impose United Nations sanctions on Zimbabwe over its violent presidential elections was welcomed by the country's discredited leadership as a victory over racism and outside meddling in its internal affairs.

British Foreign
Secretary David Miliband said Russia's veto was "incomprehensible" but Russia said sanctions would have set a dangerous precedent of political interference. South Africa said the resolution would have hurt dialogue between the ruling Zanu-PF party and the opposition, while China stressed the sanctions could undermine power-sharing talks and would "complicate" rather than ease the conflict.

Miliband was yesterday forced to deny Britain's diplomacy at the G8 summit in Japan last week, and later at the UN, had been "ill-judged"

He insisted Britain and the US were right to put the resolution to a vote and accused Russia and China of sending mixed signals about their intentions.

"It is right that, in the end, people have to show their cards and the vote (on Friday] showed that, in the end, the Russians and the Chinese – I wouldn't quite say put two fingers up – but effectively they blocked action."

Miliband was particularly critical of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev who signed a statement calling for financial sanctions against regime figures in Zimbabwe.

"The Russians signed a G8 statement. Their President at the meeting agreed to the statement which called for, among other things, financial sanctions on the Mugabe regime. So the Prime Minister (Gordon Brown] was absolutely right in what he said," Miliband said.

The US-British resolution would have imposed an international travel ban on Mugabe and other leading regime figures, as well as freezing their financial assets overseas. It would also have instituted an international arms embargo on Zimbabwe.

The fear now is that the failure to secure sanctions will strengthen Mugabe's grip on power in the aftermath of bitterly disputed elections.

Miliband insisted however that Britain would seek to keep up pressure on the regime. "

We have got to make sure that the final hold Mugabe has on power, which is at a barrel of a gun, is as short as possible because the misery for those people is overwhelming."





The full article contains 409 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 July 2008 7:01 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Zimbabwe
 
1

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 13/07/2008 08:59:39
Well if you can't get the Worlds Human Rights abusers onside at the UN, there always the opportunity for indicments at the ICC.

Or Europe could just cut them of from the International Payment System. I worked on the North Koreans.
2

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 09:23:57
What a completely badly edited report. Who writes this nonsense, or pretends to sub edit it at least. I could barely understand what it was on about.
International condemnation??? You've only quoted one englishmanand most of what he said was gobbledegook. That does not make it international condemnation. In fact you had three countries, China, Russia, South Africa speaking AGAINST the sanctions makes THAT international condemnation ya fool.
3

oder,

Scotland 13/07/2008 10:50:36
Mbeki! Mugabe`s terrorist brother!
4

commonsense,

13/07/2008 10:59:07
Like most people I know only what is fed to me about international affairs.
Mugabe who seemed to be honoured as a good guy once is now a bad guy.
Gaddafi who was once a bad guy is now a good guy.
Mugabe I assume received most of his votes from people who wanted him.
Russians and Chinese are just as bright as us,therefore perhaps they think a softly softly aproach will work better.
Won't Tesco's stance hurt the ordinary person in the street more than the leader?
Can our little country please take a back seat for a while and sort out our own problems?
Has our interferance in past conflicts come out overall on the positive side?
5

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 11:17:26
#3 Boycotting the Olympics would do what, exactly? It won't make China change its mind and suddenly start interfering in other country's politics.
Try to see the bigger picture here.
Zimbabwe means nothing except as a pawn in a much larger game of chess.
No one really cares how many people die. If they did they would have done something when Mugabe slaughtered those people so long ago.
He doesn't mind how many people die. The west, er actually your country cos I' havent seen anyone else speaking out about this, only cares because you used to be the colonial masters.
6

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

13/07/2008 11:28:49
Aye...and China is overwrought with regret regarding the weapons it has been flogging to Zimbabwe....to kill its own citizens....aye...nae wunner China's no interested in an arms embargo...nor financial restrictions on auld Bob....mibbe he's still tae pit 'es haun in 'es pocket and cough up eh?

BOYCOT THE OLYMPICS
7

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 13/07/2008 11:50:24
How could international condemnation grow when it's only David Milliband quoted as getting outraged by Russia and China's decision to veto? Can he not admit that the "diplomacy" used at the G8 summit consisted of "Vote against Mugabe", whilst at the same time holding confrontational talks with Medvedev? Have they read "Diplomacy for Dummies" recently, or The How To series on "Foreign Affairs"? I suppose in that event Russia and China would just fall right in behind Broon and Alexander and tick the box. These two countries duplicitous? I think some growing up needs to be done here. Not that the Zimbabwe situation is anything but serious but inept negotiation skills are not going to help much.
8

Richardinho,

13/07/2008 11:57:39
What on earth did the UK expect? They've got no business trying to interfere in Zimbabwean affairs.
9

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 12:32:51
So in effect Russia, China and South Africa are saying that they would have vetoed any attempt to put an end to apartheid?
The ANC is actually saying that APARTHEID was right?

Funny how the true colours always come shining through at some point. The ANC = Communist scum and incompetence
10

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 12:38:51
Richardinho #9

So in effect you are saying that NO COUNTRY outwith Africa has a right to interfere?
Does that mean turning a blind eye?
Does that mean they should ask Africa to refund the $500 000 000 000 000 IN foreign aid in the last 15 years? Does it mean no more money for Africa? Does it mean no more assistance with engineering or technology? Does it mean no more assisting with running water or sanitation? Does it mean no more assistance with education or medication?
Or are you suggesting that the world continues to send billions and billions without ever asking for some sort of responsibilty in return?
11

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 12:51:28
The Chinese & Russians are absolutely right. The UN Charter guarantees the sovereign rights of all states & the sort of sanctions proposed could only possibly be done without violating the charter if Zimbabwe was a clear & direct military threat to its neighbours.

It clearly has not invaded any neighbours, is not intending to do so & could not threaten South Africa even if it wished.

Therefore as a matter of law no honest government could vote for sanctions, It appears nobody but the wholly corrupt, genocidal, child raping, Nazi, war criminal, gangster regimes & their satelites did.
12

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 13:06:51
Neil

So what you are saying is this!

Should Scotland ever end up independent and the ruling party decides that democracy is no longer needed. If they burn down your house because you vote for the opposition, if they destory the economy and purposely starve you and your family, then that is ok just as long as they dont threaten their neighbouring countries?
You are saying it is ok for any leader to rape and murder so long as they dont threaten other nations?
13

Booster,

13/07/2008 13:40:37
Realistically it's up to the citizens of Zimbabwe to effect change.
I don't accept that the UK should get more involved in their affairs than any other country that has had a similar relationship with it.

What we should take from this is that the UN and other world bodies are a sham group. Only interested in things that will affect their own interests or that require minimal investment of resources.

If/when things get very nasty globally, food shortage wise, everyone will see it for what it is.
14

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 13:43:21
Booster

So the people of Zimbabwe who are under nourished, cold, unsheltered and almost dead. Should fight back against fat cat generals with modern weapons and an army?
In otherwords, in your eyes apartheid was right?
Funny how mindsets change eh.
15

,

13/07/2008 14:05:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 14:12:13
Yes Media.

On balance if Scotland became independent & the English government thought & the English media therefore reported, that the Scottish government was destroying our economy I would still prefer that England not invade & set up a government they approved of.

And I would much rather live in a world where there was not one international body which made the decision as to which governments were worthy of their approval.

And if there were to be such a body I would prefer that it were an honest one rather than a corrupt one which approves of dictatorship, ruining economies, burning down houses, genocide, organlegging & child sex slavery when it is convenient. Which certainly excludes membership by any of the present UK government.

I guess, on that basis Media you must already be on public record as calling for the invasion of Britain to get rid of our murdering government?
17

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 14:16:46
Guga

If being appalled by Mugabe's actions makes me a racist then that is something I can live with.

You support the genocide if you want, I will chose to oppose it. I work with a man from Zimbabwe and he has no idea what is happening with his family. When the UN decided to let Mugabe continue with his killing, my colleague was grief stricken. We are now trying to locate his family, which is going to be difficult. We cant send him home because chances are he will be murdered for his anti Mugabe stance.
I know that you have not had the opportunities that I have had in life, but that is no excuse for your lack of compassion. People in Zimbabwe are being killed, raped and tortured and it cannot be permitted to continue, no matter how many people of your ilk want it to.
18

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 14:19:22
Neil

Let me get this right.
Are you openly stating that Scotland is currently in the grips of a murdering regime?
And are you openly suggesting that the people of Scotland are no better off than the people of Mugabe?
Are you suggesting that any assistance in a time of need is not welcome?
In otherwords, we should have allowed the apartheid to continue in SA?
19

billengIand,

13/07/2008 14:46:41
#7 Horrible Cankers

Troll
20

Biker,

Ayr 13/07/2008 14:55:20
Mashimaro. Your contempable comment make me wonder why you persist in posting your stupidity on this website.
Firstly I dont quite understand what it is about the article that confuses you. It makes plain reading to me and most of the folk on here. China and Russia Vetod sanctions agains Zimbabwe, why? because of vested interests by these same nations. Mining ect. Not to mention the huge arms deals made by both to Uncle BOB. Grow up and try to read the articles properly.
Neil. Do I understand your comments to media 1 As being that if the SNP turned rogue you would accept NO interference from others? If this is the case god help us all.
21

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

13/07/2008 15:06:09
19...Media1....I do wish that you would make your mind up man....you are constantly telling us how countries should develop at their own pace and not with any outside interference...ie Asia and the exploitation of people who work under slavery conditions etc, which the western world benefits greatly from...and which you have been very vocal about telling us is not our affair.....

?
22

postmark55,

Chongqing, China, 13/07/2008 15:18:27
China and Russia took a page right out of the west's book, by defying the UN. Remember how the UN declared the invasion and occupation of Iraq illegal? Well, look at how well the USA and the UK listened to that, and went ahead and murdered, and is still murdering countless of innocent Iraqis. China is staying out of Zimbabwe's internal affairs, as well as everybody else's so the west needs to wake up and stay at home and sort out their own problems.
Yes, China does have investment interests in Zimbabwe, but it is business, not a way of telling them how to run their country. Africa has and always will have its problems, and we need to let them sort it out, as sad and as horrible as their situation is.

Horrible Cankers, for once I agree with you, Media 1 can't make up his mind what he wants. Time to p!ss or get off the pot for that boy.
23

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 15:22:54
Horrible

There is a difference in permitting coutries to develop at their own pace and allowing certain men to kill, murder and rape.
24

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 15:24:35
Media

I don't see how there can be any dispute that the present UK government has been guilty of murder & worse.

However the victims have been foreigners.

There is a differnce between "any assistance" & being invaded, as should be obvious.

When asked if the French Revolution had been a good thing a historian said "Its to early to tell". Come back in 20 years & perhaps we may begin to see if sanctions on South Africa made the place better, worse or merely different from how they would have been.

Biker - if Scotland voted to become independent & got this independence then I would accept it as being independent. An independent country does not allow other countries a veto over its government. Anything else isn't independence. I don't want separation, partly for this reason, but a pseudo-independence where England/EU/USA got to appoint our government would be less than worthless. In practice this is merely an excuse for big countries to bully small ones - the question of whether Scotland should invade the USA in the event of an election being stolen by hanging chads doesn't even arise.

I don't think any of us have any proof that China & Russia's vote was determined by money any more than we have proof whether Britain's was. Certainly ex-Sir Robert's worst crime seems to be the massacres shortly after he came topower (& before he got his Sirhood & honourary degrees & stuff).

What we do know is that they voted in accordance with the UN Charter & the rule of law & we voted against them.
25

postmark55,

Chongqing, China, 13/07/2008 15:30:55
#1 KampungHighlander,
It's high time for you to wake up boy, nothing has worked on the North Koreans. They're very skillful at playing their little games and everybody falls for it every time, I thought that you of all people would be able to see that. I don't agree with much, if anything that you say, but you weren't born last night, and you should be able to see what North Korea is up to yet again.

Also, China has done a pretty good job in their effort following the devastating earthquake it faced a couple of months ago, so cut our government some slack. Sure there are numerous cases of corruption coming out of that story, but that was at the local level, and not at the top. People are going to jail for that, as they should. As far as the parents go who lost their children, they are hurting and frustrated and looking for answers, but these answers are difficult to come by and need time to be answered properly and correctly.
China has come a long way, and is continuing to improve, give us time, we'll get it all sorted out.
26

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 15:38:35
Neil

There is no debating that the UK has inflicted all sorts of pain and torment on people during its history. But that was only allowed to happen because there was no powers to stop them, but had there been it would surely have been their responsibility to STOP the UK? Or they could have sat back and watched! But we live in a more advanced world these days and it is simple to see that people are being killed, murdered and raped in Zimbabwe. You can tell me all about Britains past,but it will not excuse Mugabe from his killing, thus he must be removed, by force if necessary. This is not about the past, it is about a man who is single handidly destorying millions of lives at will without fear and without care.
Is that not a good enough reason to try and stop him?
27

Vote SNP !!! !!!,

Kilbarchan 13/07/2008 15:38:54
#24 Media 1

Do't pay any attention to Horrible Cankers, she is an annoying troll that goes around telling people how good dog meat is.
28

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 15:51:49
vote SNP

Thank you for the advise!
I am quite familiar with the character that is Cankers, and whilst I realise it should be ignored on the grounds of brainless commentary, I cannot help but feel obliged to respond. I am fortunate, as are you to have been educated and therefore, I feel it is our duty to offer characters such as horrible a chance to communicate with more refined members of the international community.
Besides, the character itself is harmless and the way it dispenses its ill informed slander is quite amusing.
29

Guga II,

Rockall 13/07/2008 16:03:11
The poster at #16 is a troll, using my name. Come on Hootsmon censors, why are you allowing someone to use someone else's name?
30

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 16:05:26
Guga

No worries
31

Vote SNP !!! !!!,

Kilbarchan 13/07/2008 16:10:09
30 Guga II

LOL
32

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 16:19:34
#13 YES! Finally you get it
33

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

13/07/2008 16:21:27
28....Dog meat?....never eaten it mate.....if you like to chew mutt that's your problem.....

29....Media1....you are.....but a mere hypocrite....
34

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 16:26:50
Horrible

Again, it doesnt matter what I am. ALL THAT MATTERS is that Mugabe is killing people and getting away with it. Surely even you must see that as wrong?
35

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 16:28:34
Mashamro

#33 hahaha!
You;re funny
36

Biker,

13/07/2008 16:32:42
Neil Your comment suggested that if an independant Scotland suddenly became rogue to its people you would not want outside interference to resolve. I bl@@dy would mate. No government has the right to stamp on its people, the very people who supply its wealth. The day that happens is the day I become revolutionary. Whether independant or not. Mugabe is being supported finantialy and technologicaly by both the Chinese and the Russians who do not want their investment diminished, and if you cant see that then perhaps reading some back issue of this very paper will advise. To suggest it is not fact is to be nieve at best, blinkered at worst.
37

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 16:33:38
Media 1 you speak with all the typical arrogance of a westerner.
How do you know that it is in Zimbabwe's best interests to get rid of Mugabe? It might not be. You cannot forsee the future.
When Genghis Kahn invaded Baghdad he slaughtered thousands, women and children included. And the result was that Baghdad "suffered" a thousand years of peace. Now the yanks are there, they mess about and what have you got? Insurgency unlimited.
A likely outcome of Mugabe's rule is that his oppostion will be quelled and peace will come to the land. You can't tell.
What goes on in a country is not your business. The people of that country need to sort it out.
People die all the time.
Do you think you are not going to die?
38

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 16:35:28
Media there is some incongruity in you treating Mugabe's massacre when he came to power in the early 80s as current events while saying that the British governments engagement in murder, organlegging, child sex slavery & genocide over the last 18 years is merely history.

The only reason "there was no power to stop them" is that the very governments you are trusting to impose democracy on Zimbabwe were also engaged in genocide alongside our government.

Have you any evidence whatsoever, from any source not known to have lied or censored continuosly to support genocide, that shows Mugabe remotely as murderous as the people you would call in to allegedly end his alleged murders?
39

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 16:37:23
Biker and you'd have every right to become a revolutionary. That is YOUR country. YOU deal with it. How would you like it if under the circumstances China invaded Snotland and set up its government eh? I bet you'd be whining then. How about if Saudi Arabia or Yemen decided it didn't like the way you guys walked around half naked and decided to invade your country and set up government.
Grow up boy. You guys don't run the world any more.
40

,

13/07/2008 16:38:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

postmark55,

Chongqing, China 13/07/2008 16:38:38
Hey Mashimaro,
The wife and I are on our honeymoon now, and she says hi to you. We're presently in Zhejiang province, scenic but blistering hot.

Good comments, keep them up.
42

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 16:41:22
Mashimaro

The "arrogant western" remark only exists in the minds of those who see themselves as less advanced. The West is no saviour, I know that, but hell does it remind you of your nations shortcomings.
You are correct on one point though. I cannot see the future, but that does not mean I should offer my support for a murdering scumbag.
Are suggesting that I should excuse the actions of a person I know to be a serial murderer on the grounds that he has not murdered anyone I know? And should I also excuse him from his murderous ways because I dont know what the future might bring. I mean after all, he may end up becomming a born again christian and never kill again.
Fukc sake, no wonder this world is the mess it is in.

Were you denied an education? Or did you simply chose not to go to school?
43

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 17:02:45
Media the point is that you are offering your support to a murdering scumbag - in fact to a whole lot of them, & saying it is right for them to destroy all law just to get somebody they tell you is a baddie.

And if I may finish with a quote from A Man For All Seasons

"William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!

Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"
44

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:05:52
Mashimaro

I'm a bit confused so perhaps you can just clarify for me, and possibly everyone else.You stated in your post #38 "A likely outcome of Mugabe's rule is that his oppostion will be quelled and peace will come to the land. You can't tell."
Are you saying that it's a legitimate practice to kill all any anyone who stands in opposition because, once they have all been killed, a wonderful state of peace will reign?

Or are you just a total fu@kwit?
45

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 17:11:59
Media1
You don't comprehend, do you, that doing nothing is not actually "supporting" someone. That dealing with someone is not actually "supporting" them. It is not "excusing his actions".
You do not know the future. You white people have messed things up pretty darn badly in Africa - a lot of it with your "good" intentions. Look at it now. You are not perfect. You do not hold the solution to the world's crises. It is not your business.
I know South Africa quite well, by the way. It's one of my "beats" as it were. And yes, Mbeki has been a failure. Zuma will probably be worse. Who knows?
But if he does turn out to be a failure, or he kills off a few ANC people, would you want China invading you? Think you'd like to live under Beijing eh?
No, I thought not.
You as a person need to realise it's "game over" for whites in Southern Africa. Move on. Stop expecting the cavalry to come. It's not coming. It won't ever come.
Britain is just making noise to appease it's own people. It doesn't give a dam about Zimbabwe. No other european nation is even remotely interested. Of course if the media ask them they'll make all the right noises, but do anything? Nah.
Right now the biggest friends you guys have got are the Chinese. Time you realised that and learned to say xie xie.
46

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:13:36
#44 Neil, So the NAZI racial purity/anti Jew laws were ok because they were the law? Any laws that discriminate against people because they are different are ok because they are the law?

47

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 17:15:20
#45 maybe you should read your posting again. It's patently obvious that if you kill off the opposition you'd have peace. Doh! It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. And before you hold your handkerchief to your nose and faint, uh... you people do it all the time boyo.
48

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 17:18:14
#47 If you don't like a law you change it properly. You don't bend it and side step it and jump over it when it suits you. You follow it until a better one comes along and then you follow that one. That's what laws are for.
49

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:19:11
Thanks Mashimaro at last youve come out and made it clear - YOU ARE JUST A RACIST TUBE, filled with anti white hatred. You would rather see countless people die rather than allow white westerners try to end mass murder. And yes standing by IS doing nothing, its worse than that because it helps Mugabe continue to rape and maim his merry way towards hell.
50

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 17:19:55
Mashimaro

But the point is that white people in general dont want to rule AFRICA, they just want to see black African people being treated with respect by their black leaders.
There is no game over in Africa for white people because they aint playing a game. The only game that is being played in Africa is the one in which leaders RULE as opposed to govern, thus almost all the countries suffer the same toil and sweat existence. There is no reason for us to get political concerning this issue, there is only the question, is Mugabe right or wrong. In my eyes he is wrong, he lost the first election yet he is still there. That has nothing to do with whites and blacks or history, it is simply wrong and he must be made to pay the price for the pain he has caused others. Simple wouldnt you say?
51

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:25:14
Mashimaro

People with some moral courage, (that wouldnt include you for obvious reasons) thats ordinary people, don't just lie down to oppressive laws. They risk their lives to change them for everyones sake. You wouldnt understand that seeing as how you lack any imagination.
52

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 17:29:16
Mashimaro

I still dont believe it has hit the nail on the head for you. Of all the posters, he or she has made it easy for you to embrace new ideoligies.
Had Mandela embraced your views then South Africa would still be under apartheid. Yes that would mean less crime, less aids, less corruption, less chaos. But it would also mean less basic freedoms for the masses, which is unacceptable.
So men like Mandela fought back because the laws they were forced to live under were wrong. So they fought and changed them, they didnt just accept them the way you say they should have.
53

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:34:44
#53 I think you are wasting your time explaining to Mashimaro. He/She or whatever are indoctinated with anti white, anti western hatred. Better that a black man slaughters his own than a white hand intervene to stop it seems to be the view held.
54

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 17:42:08
#54 I still dont believe it

You have hit the nail on the head. Of course Russia and China have other reasons for their veteos. Whereas Mbeki and other African leaders are hell bent on supporting a black man slaughtering a black man, than give in to a white hand intervening to stop the killing.
Africa is in a state of disrepair because of this primitive way of thinking, you would think they would want to change their ways.
55

I still don't believe it !,

13/07/2008 17:55:47
#55 Media 1.
I'm afraid that change of ways wont be a reality for a long time yet, perhaps never.Obviously the West hasn't shown itself to be the most benevolent in the past, but this is now and things are better. Many in the West are fed up seeing millions of £/$ in aid going straight into the pockets of corrupt African regimes whilst the people that aid was intended to help get nothing. One day that aid will stop, then what for Africa?
56

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 17:58:48
Media 51 your solution may be simple but the real question is more complex. It is not simply whether Mugabe is a goodie or a baddie & if the latter we should send in our sheriff. Our sheriffs certainly aren't goodies, Morgan Tvangarai may not be either & we have no right to claim to be sheriffs - worst of all sheriffs who have no respect for law. If are told your neighbour spanks his kids & you shoot him it will be no defence to say you disapproved of his action.

47 I still - Invading Germany because of Hitler's racial laws would have been wrong. Indeed nibody suggested we should War happened because Germany believed it had the right to invade any country it didn't approve of - sound familiar? In any case there were only 300,000 Jews actually in Germany. This is about the same number the leaders you trust to kill in the name of democracy cleansed from Krajina & less than they then went on to cleanse from Kosovo.
57

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 18:05:46
You guys should stop pouring money into Africa. It's as simple as that. Take your money and go home. You can't ease your conscience by throwing money at the problem, lah. You are incapable of doing "business" with people without trying to link it to some "moral" goodness. Puh Leeze! Grow up.
58

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 18:18:39
Neil

You are right, it is not about whether Mugabe is a good or a badie, its about the fact that he lost the election and is still in office.
Its about how he is systematically killing people and starving them to death.
Now dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting that western governments are some shining beacon of hope, but people who reside in western sytled nations dont suffer at the hands of tyranical monsters. People who reside in western styled governments dont need to ask the world to feed them year after year for decades after decades. People living in western styled governments dont get their hads cut off for voting for the opposition. So whilst western governments may not be "all that" the western societies are certainly more responsible and more humane to eachother, which is why they are so upset by the carnage that is unfolding in Zimbabwe.
I can understand China's stance, they are used to chaos and pain, torture and dread, but the west is more refined and more compassionate! The recent vote tells us that.
59

Neil,

Glasgow 13/07/2008 18:28:44
"but people who reside in western sytled nations dont suffer at the hands of tyranical monsters"

Precisely. The monsters in our government are, at least currently, much keener on tyranizing (also murdering) those living in other countries. Anything to get some gladiatorial combat on the TV news.

And this makes it likely that yet another criminal war, this time against Zimbabwe would lead to fewer deaths exactly how?
60

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 18:36:21
Neil

Your living in cloud cookoo land!
Our governments are indeed not some shining light of hope and glory! But compassionate men and women living in these nations can see that what is happening in Zimbabwe is wrong and they want to help.
The other thing that must be noted, is that this British tyrancial government you are speaking about is one government who wants to help the people of Zimbabwe, which is more than can be said for the governments you are tending to protect for their stance on Zimbabwe.
The only question you need ask in this regard, is this.
"Is Mugabe a tyrant or not??
61

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/07/2008 18:41:16
7 Horrible Cankers

The PROPER spelling is "boycott", my dear youngish lady.

Too much champagne and olives last night?

And just how many "companions" were in with you and your sybaritic and watery wallowing in luxury?
62

Mashimaro,

China 13/07/2008 19:09:44
Mugabe is a tyrant. We don't care. We don't even care if we care.
If you want to help the people of zimbabwe take them food, build them hospitals, that sort of thing
63

Media 1,

cape town 13/07/2008 19:18:55
Mashimaro #63

The problem with building hospitals, schools and sending money is this.
If you send money it usually ends up in the hands of the tyrants. If you build hospitals there is nobody to run them and if you build schools there is no teachers to educate the children.
Also, it is common in South Africa for the indigenous people to burn down schools, hospitals and train stations. I am uncertain if the same happens in Zim. But for instance, last month a train was late getting to the station. When I say late, I mean it didnt arrive all day. So the locals burnt down the station and set fire to all the carriages that were in the station. Thus, when the late train eventually arrived there was no station to dock at and no carriages to add to other engines..The same thing happens with schools, the books dont arrive on time so they burn dowm the school, when the books do arrive there is no classrooms. It happens all the time, it is almost like a normality. In fact if it doesnt happen you are surprised.
So whilst I can understand your willingness to send money and build things, it doesnt work it's been happening for years.
But I think we are missing the point here. Nobody wants to preach to Africa or tell them how to do things, all we are saying is that Mugabe lost the election so he needs to go.
64

Tobermory,

Mull 13/07/2008 19:53:23
62 TimW1234

Horrible Cankers has always been playing catch up.
65

jerrymanders,

2nd bottle of red? 13/07/2008 23:17:48
M1

My goodness. Not only do you proliferate on a football thread but you take over International Politics. What is happening in "Zim" is truelly appalling, as was Apartheid, in both Zim and SA. How many titles?
66

Mashimaro,

China 14/07/2008 01:29:00
#64 Odd how that doesn't happen in other places where china is building. If you need teachers, send teachers. If you need medical staff, send medical staff. You don't have to hand over too much money to the wrong people if all you are doing is genuinely helping those who need the help. Usually the goverment quite likes it as it makes them look pretty good. China will continue to do exactly the same no matter who is in charge. And so when something like cyclone Nargis hits Myanmar, it can talk to the government and it will be allowed to send aid and aid workers.
Fact is if you go about stamping over everyone they just get annoyed and things just get worse and worse until zimbabwe happens, or Myanmar happens, or North Korea happens, or Syria, or Iran, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, North Vietnam, Tibet, Cuba, the Berlin Wall... do you get my meaning here?
the west never seems to learn its lesson.
People - and god only knows there are way too many of them on this earth - are the most expendable resource we have at the moment. The world needs tough leaders who will take tough decisions. The west doesn't have those otherwise they would be occupying zimbabwe as we speak.
67

tomi,

14/07/2008 05:02:15
Not to condemn Mugabe is to support him!

But is it suprising, concidering the records of the Russian and Chinese governments?

But why have the other countries who have opposed him not done anything for so long?

Why was Mugabe ever allowed to return home after his recent visit to Rome?
He should have been arrested, or his plane should have had an "accident" at 30,000ft over the ocean.

But, of course!! We could never have approved of that!!

Just let the innocent suffer under a tyrant while await the approval of Russia and China to make a flag waving gesture via the UN.

But, time is on the side of the innocent. Mugabe is now 83 years old and must inevitable go the way of all flesh.
Just pray to God that you are not handcuffed to him, to where he is going!
68

Mashimaro,

China 14/07/2008 06:05:47
#68... to do nothing is also an answer
69

postmark55,

Chongqing, China, 14/07/2008 06:07:00
#68 tomi,
By you saying that "not to codemn Mugabe is to support him" is the same thing as what Bush said, "If you're not with us you're against us". Nothing is quite that black and white, or that simple. Interfering in Zimbabwe's affairs will only make it worse, leave them alone, let them sort it out. There's nothing for western powers to gain by going in there, that's why they aren't there. They have raped most of Africa in the past, and things have returned back to 'normal' since the west withdrew. Get over it, it is a sad and horrible situation, but interference won't work. Look at Iraq, look at Afghanistan, look at any place where the west has interfered, nothing but chaos and grief for the citizens of any particular country the west has 'improved'. China and Russia are wise to have vetoed this, and I hope that they continue to stand their ground. The USA and the UK are criminals with their occupation of Iraq, but nobody is talking of boycotting them.
By blowing up Mugabe's plane makes you no better than him, so don't even talk that kind of non-sense, time and nature will sort it all out, in the meantime we have to sit back and wait, and continue to improve our own perspective countries, the rest of the countries are none of our business.
70

postmark55,

chongqing, China, 14/07/2008 09:28:11
You folks over there in the UK must be tickled pink to have a dim-witted leader like Brown running the show and calling the shots, just look at what he had to say here.
Brown critical of Russia and China over UN veto



« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryGORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, last night delivered a broadside at Russia and China, saying their veto of UN sanctions on Zimbabwe could not be "easily justified" in the light of the violence and intimidation being unleashed by the regime of Robert Mugabe.

Following the Security Council vetoes on Friday that blocked world-wide action against the Harare regime, Mr Brown yesterday pressed European leaders meeting in Paris to extend EU sanctions against named associates of Mr Mugabe.

Mr Brown said: "I don't think the veto by China and by Russia can be easily justified, I don't think it can be easily defended, given what we know is happening in Zimbabwe."


So what he is actually saying is that he is defending China's and Russia's vetoes, he just can't easily justify or defend it.
We have allies in the strangest places. Thanks Gordon Brown, much appreciated.
71

Biker,

Ayr 14/07/2008 10:39:03
mashimaro. more stupidity from the eastern unthinking brigade. Should a rogue government take control and kill the opposition all that happens is the resulting deaths go into abayance for a period. They do NOT stop. Allowing a marshal law to take presidence is dangerous at best. Just have a look around the world where this has happened. Most of South America has been decimated over the past decades all because some militery f@ckwit decided to take control. Totaliterian governments only work by subjugating the populus, your own country is wittness to that.
So grow up and see the bigger picture and stop cats pawing around with the smoke and mirrors.
Postmark. If indeed you are on your hunymoon... congratulations, but go away and attend to your new wife and stop wasting our time here.
72

Neil,

Glasgow 14/07/2008 11:19:53
Biker are you saying that no opponent should try to overthrow Mugabe? Since you are not proposing that he continue ruling is this really just a sideways attempt to say Britain should recolonise it?

Media you have not at any time produced any evidence whatsoever that Mugabe is a tyrant. That should be the very first thing to establish before proposing to attack him.

What independent evidence do you have from any source at least 10,000 times more honest than the Nazi controlled media that said Milosevic was a dictator & war criminal.
73

Mashimaro,

China 14/07/2008 12:32:41
Biker... look and learn history...Genghis Khan, Baghdad - all opposition killed. Result, 1,000 years of peace. Doh
74

postmark55,

Chongqing, China, 14/07/2008 13:06:49
#72 Biker,
Hey Biker, thanks for the congratulations, and yes I am indeed on my honeymoon.
Now I am spending a lot of time with my wife but I do take the time out to still do the other things in my life, including wasting your time here, except I choose to call it educating you.
Your country would do well to keep its nose out of everybody else's business, your trend to colonize kind of has tainted your reputation. China is not guilty of that, although we are guilty of annexing, but that is just to give our population more elbow room. No harm done by what we have done, we have in fact given the people in those areas a far better lifestyle than they had before, and with the exception of a few misfits, most are happy. So Biker, again thanks for the congratulations, and in appreciation I educate you, and both of us win.
75

Biker,

Ayr 14/07/2008 20:28:37
Neil. What I am saying is that it is time for an international resolution to this problem. Yes indeed get rid of Mugabe and his thugs but dont replace it with another tribe. It does not help, and ultimately all who lose are the normal everyday people without an axe to grind (sic).
Mashimaro look at Venesuella, Chile, El Salvador, and all the rest of the "militery" regimes. Even those on your own doorstep. D'oh. Chump.
76

StevenB,

15/07/2008 01:30:22
#75 Congratulations on your wedding and have a nice honeymoon.

"Although we are guilty of of annexing......."

Germany did that and said the same thing
77

,

15/07/2008 06:42:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Mashimaro,

China 15/07/2008 11:38:40
China didn't really annex anything. It's just how it washed up on the beach. Mongolia annexed China, we just won't give it back ROFL.
79

Mashimaro,

China 15/07/2008 14:10:31
Biker #76 - surely you jest, right? You haven't seen the cat pawing that's been going on in Central/South America since WWII? Doh.

 

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